The Other 6 Days

Women in Church Leadership?! | The Other 6 Days | Episode 33

• Southwest Church • Season 2 • Episode 33

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In this episode, Pastors CJ McFadden, Ricky Jenkins & Natalie Dawson engage in a healthy & helpful dialogue that has often been & continues to be a deeply debated topic in Christianity... gender roles & women in leadership. We will offer some initial frame work & insights to establish the heart behind our conversation and then address the most commonly held views & Positions on the topic. We then answer some of our listeners biggest questions and concerns and address what we can do as believers and leaders to offer some helpful ways forward in our current culture. We wrap up the podcast with some helpful information, resources and takeaways that hopefully provide deeper understanding, greater confidence, increased faith and greater love as we engage in life with fellow believers and the culture around us.

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Speaker 1:

I think that Ricky just hit the nail on the head when he said that he's going to be someone who opens doors and I could list the people who have opened doors for me, and I just think that that's just a sweet thing.

Speaker 3:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Other Six Days podcast, where we chat about life outside of Sundays and what it means to live from our gatherings, and not just for them. I'm your host, cj Mcadden, and here again with Pastor Ricky Jenkins, and today we have another special guest with us. The great Natalie Dawson is here with us. If you don't know, natalie, she's currently the executive pastor here at Southwest Church and pretty much holds the whole place together. She's a devoted follower of Jesus, an amazing mother of four, wife to the wonderful Sean Dawson. She's a thoughtful and accomplished business mind as well as a gifted leader within our church. Today, pastor Natalie has graciously agreed to help enlighten us as we seek to engage in healthy discussion about gender roles, specifically as it relates to women and their impact as leaders within the church body. Natalie, excited to have you here today. Welcome, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you, I know.

Speaker 1:

You know you really have a voice for podcasts, you really do it really does right, and a cadence. Like it's, peaceful.

Speaker 2:

As soon as you started to talk.

Speaker 1:

I was like there's just such a peace that fell over the.

Speaker 2:

It's just uninvasive.

Speaker 1:

It. You should read some Audible books. I feel like you could do that.

Speaker 2:

You know what. That's actually a good idea.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you don't have an up on your plate right now. You're going to be the Southwest Audible voice.

Speaker 3:

We'll add it to the list, I think what the paycheck might look like. I think you're figuring out a spot.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I got you, I got you. You know what this is tangential, but how long before book readers? Oh right, like, surely they're going to figure that out in a year or two.

Speaker 1:

It's done already.

Speaker 2:

Is it done?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's done already For audibles.

Speaker 2:

It's written by AI on it.

Speaker 3:

I have one, yeah, and it's pretty good, okay, that's already done.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Get it faster.

Speaker 3:

I'm sure, and also to ours, and all I have to do now is recite a quick brown fox jumped over the. And then they get those syllables yeah, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 2:

That's right. Yeah, yeah, sally, so she sells by the seashore.

Speaker 1:

A robot is preaching this Sunday in Southwest.

Speaker 2:

Ricky Jenkins was seen in Newport Beach eating burritos.

Speaker 1:

Oh man, we're in forritos, we will soon have a podcast on AI. This is just an infomercial for it.

Speaker 3:

I feel like every podcast almost turns into a conversation about AI Skynet.

Speaker 1:

I didn't even come to work today. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 3:

Well, not only is it great to have someone here to help represent women so we're excited about that today but it's also important to have this conversation, I think, with someone who loves the church and loves people like you do. So, natalie, today's a special day too. We always do something fun when we first start off, but this is the moment that you finally get your opportunity to lead worship.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I've been warming up actually and preparing.

Speaker 2:

Excuse me what.

Speaker 1:

You'll want to remove your headpieces right now.

Speaker 3:

For our listeners out there. We're just messing around, but Natalie loves worship and I'd say it doesn't fall into her top giftings. No for sure, Not, not. But I wanted to open up the floor to you. Oh, that's so kind.

Speaker 2:

It don't even fall into her bottom.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's nowhere on the chart of any of my giftings. However, whenever we get a new worship team member, I send them an audition video and it's getting harder and harder for them to tell me no like, depending on my position within the organization. Now they're like well, this is weird.

Speaker 3:

Well, we would love to hear some of your thoughts today, though, on sharing food. This has been an ongoing discussion amongst our staff, and we all have very strong feelings on it, so tell us how you feel about sharing food.

Speaker 1:

It's a very rare day that I wouldn't share almost anything I was eating. Right, I was even trying to think about that, preparing for the podcast. I wouldn't share a lollipop. Well, maybe I would. Actually, I think it depended on who it was.

Speaker 2:

I actually Like back and forth. Yeah, that's not right.

Speaker 3:

I never thought of back and forth, I was just thinking are you done?

Speaker 2:

Like I'd give somebody. If there's an idiot that wants my lollipop, well, here you a fool, but yeah, go ahead, but give it back to me. No, here you're a fool, but yeah, go ahead, but give it back to me, especially with my children yeah, um, I won't.

Speaker 1:

I don't love to share drinks with people. I don't like the idea of backwash, but I will share soup I know, yeah, we've talked about this, yeah soup is like in our like interview process now we will ask that question because I think it's fun to know we actually have had staff members who won't even sit by me and at a meal because they know that I'm going to ask for a bite of their food.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think spoon sharing should be outlawed even amongst married people. Really, that's just not right.

Speaker 1:

You wouldn't share a toothbrush. I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2:

You know what. You know what I'm lying I have, I have. I have forgotten my toothbrush and had to use April's and she went to the store to buy me, because you either brush your teeth or not.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, I would brush the teeth, but I've seen people dip it in Listerine and try to get you know, sterilize it. You know, you know.

Speaker 1:

but yeah, yeah, I don't think you're fine.

Speaker 3:

Fine, you just pick sean's right up and just I'd be yeah, no, okay, wow, yeah, I know.

Speaker 1:

So, sharing food, what about you guys sharing food?

Speaker 2:

with april? Sure, yeah, because I finished april's plates, so yeah I, I do.

Speaker 3:

I definitely with kelly, like I mean, if that's our choice, like if that's all we have, but like definitely, all I think about is my daughter when she was two and she's like daddy water and then she would drink something. She just had a whole bunch of goldfish and then it went back in and there was just floaties and I was like it's yours, it looked like you just fed fish.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Right, it's just like this. You took a drink, you know, and as much as I love her, I was only eat half of my food, and you all always offer, I always offer my food to you guys, and everybody eats it well, natalie's an over orderer because she always orders a big steak sandwich and, hey, thank the lord, every time we're all at lunch she'll order, like I'd like, an entire roasted pig, please, and four appetizers I'll take.

Speaker 1:

I'd like an entire roasted pig, please, and four appetizers. I'll take one of every of that. I can't decide on just one thing.

Speaker 3:

See, I'm about portions so mine's more about portion assessment. Like I've said, like I can eat this much, so I ordered that and I've already saw it's pretty much consumed. So when someone takes away from that I feel like I got shorted. So that's tough for me, but that's more. That's a that's an issue. Yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah.

Speaker 2:

There's an eight thing. That's what we do, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Sean will ask me what I'm ordering at a restaurant and then complain about what I'm ordering Cause I can't share it with him. I'm like order your own meal.

Speaker 2:

Like I, eggs is one of my favorites, and for breakfast, and he hates that. And he'll be like you're not going to eat it all and I'm like I don't care if I eat it all, that's what I want right now. So I've got an old april and a new april. The new one orders fish and veggies, so the old april, though, cheeseburgers and casserole, and I just used to love it because she's never going to eat it all, so I used to be able to have, you know my fat meal and then the rest of her fat meal. So now I get this, my fat meal, and her, you know, rootabase.

Speaker 1:

That's because Sweet April's gone on every one of your diets with you and stays on them.

Speaker 3:

Let's go on a diet, then you bail. She's stuck, that's well played.

Speaker 2:

That is well played. That was well played.

Speaker 3:

Oh, I love that Well, so let's jump into our topic today. Let's see what we get. Started that that was fun, though for sure. Actually I can't skip past. I had a thought, for this will finish it off, did you guys? If there was a plate of nachos that someone was eating and they've really gotten into that thing and just finger fooded the, you know, it's pretty much just a big mush pile left. Are you gonna eat that? Yeah, I'll starve, that's, that's right. Really, I'll throw up nachos, nachos.

Speaker 2:

Nachos are very personal. It's a very personal, very personal meal. Yeah, you stir it around in it. Yeah, oh my god, sour creamage everywhere, don't you have?

Speaker 1:

you have a lot of siblings.

Speaker 2:

I'm the oldest.

Speaker 1:

I am the oldest of a lot of siblings and actually my young. I think that the further they got down in kids they actually wouldn't have shared. But I I was just a natural sharer of things.

Speaker 2:

Clothes oh yeah, it's because there are a lot of us that I don't share, so I think we reacted to our trauma in different ways.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, see, I had to wear goodwill underwear when I was growing up, so the two team I thought I was saying that like this is why I.

Speaker 1:

I have trauma. I always wonder if people donate their underwear to Goodwill.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, they do. And yeah, my mom's like yeah, I got you some new undies and I'm like I didn't know better.

Speaker 2:

Amen, oh man, you was raised right, though that's good.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I don't know, we might have to cut that I'm like wow Well there's a lot of listeners who are like dang right, Don't spend no money, you ain't got to yeah exactly yeah, yeah. Won't share nachos, but wear someone else's underwear. But wear someone else's underwear.

Speaker 3:

I'm just going to put that out there for you guys. That's the result of having to wear a good one, it's bizarre.

Speaker 3:

So a little groundwork and framework as we get started in our conversation today. The topic that at hand is far too deep and nuanced to attempt to adequately unpack in one podcast episode, and we know that. So there have been ongoing debates in Christianity regarding gender roles, biblical interpretation and church leadership, along with lifetimes of scholarly research on all sides to bring clarity to our topic today. So our goal really here is to fly 30,000 feet and hopefully help offer some insightful and healthy dialogue, bring clarity to how Southwest Church operates in light of what we read in scripture. With that, I'd love to hear what are some things that you guys would say are on your heart at the top of this conversation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah man, I can't wait to hear Natalie's insight on this. You know, there is a theological discussion, there's a biblical discussion, there is a how now should we live discussion when you talk about these kinds of things. But to answer your question with what I feel, man, I feel like I don't think anyone on their best day cannot say there seems to be somewhat of room in scripture to allow for something whereby the image bearers of the king, ie men and women, have some role to play in the gospel, no matter where you're at on the spectrum.

Speaker 2:

I don't think anybody would be hard pressed to say there's not an affinity, there's not an exactitude to invent a word as to how that shows up. There are good debates on either side and here's what I'm feeling. There are so many things in this cultural moment where we have to take hard stances that are so explicitly clear. There is no room in the scripture. I speak of LGBTQ plus stances and human sexuality. I speak of exclusivity, right that Jesus Christ is the only way to God, that he is God, that he is a God of eternality. And I speak of. You know our stance in this church.

Speaker 2:

The Bible is true, it is inerrant, it is without error, it is the word of God that speaks to the totality of the human experience. And so I feel, in this moment where culture is going to demand that we take hard stances and not move one iota, that where we can say, okay, there seems to be some open handedness and let's have a discussion as to how we're going to show up in that space. It's going to be honoring of God's word, honoring of our people and move the culture forward through the gospel of Jesus Christ. So that's what I'm feeling. I'm feeling that, man, I got to say no to so many things. Right, like cause, the Bible says no and and, and that's where we we take a bullet for. But where, where the Bible seems to say, okay, there's this and there's that, and let's talk, and okay, right, I want to say let's do that because I want everybody to be used by God to do whatever it is God has called them to do. So that's kind of what I'm feeling. What about you, dan?

Speaker 1:

CJ and I in prepping for this. We were talking and I just remember we were sitting at preaching master class and Joe Saxon and Megan Fate Marshman were being interviewed. I remember they both had completely different experiences with their walk and Joe had said I feel like the Lord has called me to kick doors open to allow women in leadership. And Megan Fait said I feel like the Lord has called me to walk through doors that men have opened for me. And I remember like crying in that moment because I was like Lord, what have you called me to do?

Speaker 1:

I can still remember being six years old sitting in a little church in Indio and it was like a Wednesday night service and the pastor talking about work as unto the Lord. It was probably six years old and I still remember I always wanted to work as unto the Lord, no matter what I was doing, and so in every job I've ever had, I've worked really hard and my parents raised me to know like, hey, you're going to be a strong woman and you're going to be able to use your giftedness for the kingdom, and I never thought that that would hold me back. I remember when I came to Southwest it was the first time that I ever realized, oh, this is going to be different for me. I'm going to be the pastor of women and I'm going to have a run, and I thought that was awesome. And the more that my job changed, the more critique I started to receive and the more I had to understand how two scriptures would just totally place me in a box, versus the hundreds of scriptures that were in the Word that talked about women. And it was a hard road for me to understand that, because people always want you to be the one to debate why you're in your role right, so they'll use, you know, 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy.

Speaker 1:

It's always, they're always, going to come at me with those two scriptures and it's like man. But what about the rest? Like what about everything else that the word has to say? So I believe that the Lord has called me to walk through doors that had been open for me, but to hold the door open for the next generation of women leaders, and I just feel like that is what the Lord has called me to do.

Speaker 1:

And so I don't know what that looks like, but I do know that it looks like man. I'm going to do the best that I can. In whatever role I'm working at in the church, I'm going to work as unto the Lord and then I'm going to help other women have this unity. Because it's lonely, that's right, that's the other thing. So you know, it's a. It's a fun topic, yeah, and everyone assumes I've read every book on it and I'm like so really busy working, like I really do have a big job and I'm still a mom and a wife and like I'll carry all those rooms still. Just because I'm a working mom doesn't mean that I don't take the kids to the doctor and I don't do their scheduling. So it's funny when they're like what are your favorite books on women and leadership? I'm like I don't know.

Speaker 2:

Honestly, I don't, I don't actually know. Harvard Business Review.

Speaker 1:

Honestly, I'm like well, you know, I don't, I don't the Bible, like let's sit down and talk about it.

Speaker 3:

Well, and that's one of the things like I always loved is We've engaged in conversation on that with even me and you, natalie, is like I love the position that you hold and the posture that you hold as well with it, and because you hold it, you're so open handed and you're willing to have conversations about this and you do it in such a way and I know your heart, I know your love for Jesus, I know the things that you want for the people that you get the privilege to serve, and so, in that, that just it really just kind of changes as you step into this to just say, hey, let's like here can we have healthy conversations about what that looks like, regardless of where you land on the topic. And like you said, really, and so well, we have to take a hard stance on so many things as a firm. No, like is this an area that we can look into? To say like, hey, women have been gifted and asked to steward their gifts in a certain way too, and we'll get into that a little bit later so what does that look like for them to walk in those? And so, yeah, anyway, I think this will be, this will be.

Speaker 3:

It's not an easy conversation, but it'll be a great one. I think that we need to have that's good, that's good. So let's do this. Let's jump into a talk a little bit about a few of the most commonly held positions, like egalitarianism and complementarianism. And then, what do these terms mean? What do they mean for the church? Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 2:

So you know, you hear in different theological circles or if you're kind of steeped in church, you kind of been there, and then that these will be familiar terms to you. A lot of our folks, right, there will be like, excuse me, but you know, like there's just never been any challenge as to how they think people ought to show up with respect to gender, right, and so there's a lot of new folks on our other six days podcast who have naturally progressed and seen in the corporate arena, right, a certain kind of what we'll define later as egalitarianism man can be a CEO, woman can be a CEO. Right, they saw that played out in their homes. Right, maybe there was a single parent home where there was just mama. So mama was mama and daddy, or daddy and daddy was mom and daddy, and so what do you mean? Women can't do it, right. And so we want to be very gentle with our introduction to Toms and not say I just want to remind especially Southwest folks that you know, here on staff we don't sit at meetings ever, I think.

Speaker 2:

And talk about egalitarianism versus complementarianism, like we literally spend most of our days, how do we get these folks saved and discipled, and like that's our conversation. So but, but to throw it out there, complementarianism and think of this idea of gender, god having created gender roles, ie male and female, to complement one another, and CJ's got such good notes it's this idea that I'm created as an image bearer of God himself. I'm made in the image of God, and thereby that means Natalie's created the image, cj is created in the image. They're equal in essence and value and worth, right. At the same time, there is distinction in how God has called us to show up, and so the old preacher used to say the old preacher never said this. A new preacher.

Speaker 1:

Ricky.

Speaker 2:

Jenkins, my peers. So there's equality but not sameness, right? And so it's just this idea that you know the old, now the old preacher, would say this anything with mold in one head is a monster. But that's it, right, that God has created order to be able to complement one another so we can get his agenda done. So it comes from the word complement, meaning something that completes or makes perfect either two parts or things needed to complete the whole counterparts, and that implies that without both it's incomplete. And so Southwest would sit in what's called in scholarship, what's called evangelicalism, something called soft complementarianism, and we'll flesh that out here in a few minutes, right.

Speaker 2:

But essentially we see scripture saying in the same way a family, ephesians five. There seems to be this outflow of how God wants the roles to show up, right, husband and wife, both equal. Yet God has called that for leadership and the way of a mirror of priesthood, if you will. In the way of a mirror of priesthood, if you will. Here's the husband, head of the household, yet partners with a woman who comes alongside him, right, to complement his leadership and thereby carry out these roles In the same way. We see that in the church, right, and so we see God calling us to eldership in 1 Timothy and in Titus, and we see these Greek words, presbyteros and episkopos, and these words that Paul seems to quite explicitly connect to male headship, right. At the same time, though, we see this celebration right of value and contributions to females that Paul celebrates a whole lot. Jesus celebrates even more than Paul, and we're going to talk about that in a minute right. But just this idea that ministry is this shared thing. But at the same time, god says as far as the ultimacy of leadership, I preserve that for men, and I speak of a senior pastor role, which is kind of a senior elder, right. And then the elders of the church. But then we see these celebrations Right.

Speaker 2:

I see, in the New Testament, women declaring the truth of the church. But then we see these celebrations, right. I see, in the New Testament, women declaring the truth of God. I see them serving in the diaconate, I see them even we're talking about this from the Bible I see them at places prophesying, and we see Paul celebrating this thing. And so that's when we kind of delve into the context of what the arguments are, because that's where we veer.

Speaker 2:

But essentially, that's complementarianism, and then there's egalitarianism, ok. And so when you think egalitarian means man, regardless of what the literacy of Scripture holds, they take a an equal view of all things when they read Scripture. And so egalitarianism, in my humble opinion, allows for metaphor and allows for somewhat of an eisegetical view, which means I'm looking into the text, I read it a certain way. Esau Macaulay would say and so, essentially right, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there's neither male nor female, and they take text like that to say a woman can do or can contribute whatever a man can contribute and vice versa. There's no distinction at all, and so it's somewhat of a great thing. So both men and women are equally called and gifted by God for all ministries and positions within the church, and that there should be no gender-based restrictions on roles such as pastor, elder, teacher and so on and so forth. So anyways, complementarian versus egalitarian.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you'll sometimes see that egalitarian too, it's full inclusion, right, that's right. That's good, that's right. We include another one, but we won't talk too much about it. But that's patriarchal and that's a commonly held view throughout most of history and societies, and that one's full male superiority, but that's one that we don't need to jump into here specifically. Yeah, that's like the MMA view. Yeah, the MMA view.

Speaker 2:

Swords, swords.

Speaker 3:

Oh man. Well, let's have some conversation and address I think it's healthy for us, as we set some groundwork right there, to jump in and answer and address a few of our listeners specific questions and concerns. I think that's helpful because we can talk about what we're always here. On the other six days, we want to hear what you have to say and so we want to provide some answers to that, because we're here to. We're here to help you. That's what we're here for. That's right. And so one of our listeners indicated and you mentioned this to me, indicated fear or worry that any budging in this area, uh, from traditional understanding could potentially undermine biblical authority and be a slippery slope toward more, maybe more liberal position, like homosexuality and other cultural issues of our day. Um, so what do you? What do you? What do you think about that, Ricky?

Speaker 2:

Like yeah, you know I want to. I want to, uh, uh, introduce some empathy into the question. You know what I mean, because most of our questions are formed by our environment, right, and what we were passed down, and such and such, such and such and all that good stuff, and that's fair, right. So I hear this question, right, man, if you budge, see already for me, yeah, that's a troubling word, yeah, but I've got empathy for it. You see what I'm saying. So let me be frank.

Speaker 2:

I've had this conversation at least a hundred times in my life at least, and I spent months, one year, during my seminary studies, reading everything I could, gorged on everything, on all sides, on all views, and, of course, read the Bible for myself. Now, I'm only one person, but I've had at least 100 conversations. And here's the question I always ask have you read the whole Bible? And not one person has said yes. So I don't even think you get to have a view. Hmm, if you hadn't read the book? Yeah, and so already to me that's a problem. Now, we got to be careful and I'd be fair and I'd be self-righteous. You don't even get to talk to me because you hadn't read the book. That's not my heart. But, man, I think when you give God the privilege, russell Brand, is that his name.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the British actor who's come to Christ. He was saying, man, I had all these opinions about a book I'd never read, and then when I read it, he got saved. And so what more can happen to us when we read the totality of God's word and then make an assumption? So the word budge is a problem for me. I am fiercely biblical. You know what I'm saying? Fiercely biblical. That sounded terrible. I'm not fiercely, I want to be Fiercely. What kind of that was a Ramadi statement?

Speaker 1:

I'm extremely godly. You are extremely godly.

Speaker 2:

But that is my heart. But to round to the third, because I want to hear what Natalie says here, you know, I would just say yeah, if there was not any room and expression, right, what we see God using his daughters, then I would say yeah, that's a real slippery slope for us. But I can get to call out verse after verse. So yeah, 1 Timothy 2.12,. I do not permit a woman is that it? To speak in the church.

Speaker 2:

1 Corinthians 16, let the women in the church keep silence. So we get to say that the Bible says that and I don't get to take it out and act like it's not there. Now I got a way of how I see that and we can talk about that. But then I see Romans 16, and I see Phoebe commended, and the Greek word is deacon, you know, as a servant of the church. Then I see Luke 2, where the Christ child is announced and Anna is referred to as a prophetess. And I see Exodus 15, where Miriam is referred to as a prophet. Then I see Lydia, and then I see Priscilla Romans 16, along with her husband. We assume Aquila. Paul says my fellow workers in the church, right, and then I see Jesus die and let women be the first people to tell the world that he had risen, which, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:

Did you imagine Exactly?

Speaker 2:

So yeah, I'm turning the question on his ear, I'm not answering it right, but, like, once you say budge, you're already showing me something that it's not something that God celebrates on some level and we can engage as to what that level is. What do you think, natalie?

Speaker 1:

I've had this question actually come to me and it's like, and I've had to just go back and say where have you seen us budge, budge on our stances, on these things that you're concerned about? So, like, tell me where your concern really lies, because there's so much access to so many different perspectives now because of online and YouTube, and so a lot of times they're watching one side and getting that entire one side, but they're not watching the other side, they're not having conversations that actually bring the other side in, so they're gaining a ton of traction on their side by watching whoever they're watching on YouTube and then coming back and saying they have said that if you budge on this, you're going to budge on other areas. And every single time I say what does Ricky say any time he talks about marriage From our stage? There's a lot of pastors who aren't as intentional with their language as we are with our language. We just are. We're intentional with our language.

Speaker 1:

And so you know, and it's kind of a painful thing to say like, oh, because you allow this, it means that you're, you know, compromising in these areas, and it's just not who we are. We don't compromise when it comes to the word of God, and so it's always this it almost puts you in defense when they say you're going to budge and it's like no, we're not.

Speaker 2:

That's good. Well, we should put our position paper in the show notes, right, To let people read it out and look at all of my scriptures there in the show notes. So I'll say this before you have to move on this is going to be a long way out, I think, and I think it should be. But you know, we would be classified as soft complementarian, and so we have an elder board that is preserved by all male. The senior pastor of Southwest will always be I hope I'm all male Right. But at the same time, soft complementarian means that we celebrate the beauty of what we feel and see in Scripture as shepherding authority that we give to women, that we allow a woman to have the calling of a pastor, we allow her to celebrate those gifts, to be educated in that, to be trained in that and to be used here in our body. And so we can talk more about that later. But just to let people know where we're at, I'll say it this way too. This is back to you know I'm being, you know y'all shut me up when I need to. But like that budge word, right, so like so what I hear with first Timothy 2.12, first Corinthians 16, right, it's clear, it's explicit. That's what the Bible says. And I say you're absolutely right. Why haven't you obeyed it? What do you mean? What do you mean? I'm almost such as such as well.

Speaker 2:

Paul said let the women keep silence in the church. Why aren't you obeying that? Because you don't mind us talking here, you don't mind us singing there, you don't mind doing that. So if you're going to have a literal argument, why don't you have a little approach to what the Bible is saying? So if that's your logic, why aren't you carrying that logic out fully? So already you're showing me you have a spectrum of meaning in that right, and we can talk about what the spectrum is. But if Paul's not speaking to the spectrum, why do you think you get to? So if you're telling me it's black and white, you're not carrying out as if it's black and white. So that's the problem with that hermeneutic. Does that make sense? So I think 1 Timothy 2 can be kind of ground out with the Akasune and the Dadaache, but anyways, we'll talk about that later.

Speaker 2:

But anyways, 1 Corinthians 16 is so helpful because we know for a fact that when Paul told those women to keep silent, we know for a fact that they were loud, they were boisterous, they were rambunctious. Corinth had all sorts of ecstatic worship in the pagan temples. The whole idea was to show off that you could speak in tongues, that you could get loud, that you could sing. And Bob says y'all's women is crazy, Shut up If the men would have been doing it. And there are places in First Corinthians where he did stop stop doing that, and so, yeah, anyways, we should talk more about that. But my point is is if that's going to be your hermeneutic and your logic, then you should be faithful to that and carry it all out, Because if Paul's saying this should be seen and not heard, then we're all in trouble, including those that champion 1 Corinthians 16 and 1 Timothy 2.

Speaker 1:

Does that make sense. Yes, and it's always the thing you are, but that's okay here's. Here's the second thing.

Speaker 1:

It's always a slip, it's always this scale, because they'll say that we can teach, we can teach women and children, but we can teach when, when, so at 18, does a man become old enough then that you no longer can have a woman's influence in your life? And the reality is, if we were to look back, the most impact being made on kids' lives, typically when it comes to discipleship in the home, is the mom reading the Bible, praying with her kids, and that's just the reality. So at what point does it no longer become okay for you to speak to a man? And then the second thing that I just love to say is First Corinthians also tells us that we should have our head covered when we pray, and so, like when I'm getting feedback, it's like well, do you think I should have my head covered when I pray as well? And it's never. That's always like oh no, no, no, no, you don't need to do that.

Speaker 3:

And I'm always like what that's antiquated. I mean CJ did say he was going to bring a head covering for me today, just for this conversation, Just to start it off. We were going to do it for fun and she was going to come in and say that would have been awesome.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Which might have been better than this headset with my hoops.

Speaker 2:

I mean, you got me with a headset set of hoops I should have.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think that's such a good word. And again, the Holy Spirit, empathy. You get to be a Southwestern. I see it the same way, as long as you preserve the spirit of unity amongst the brethren, so that's okay. We can be a place where Natalie is in a different space at this than I. We can't be that on the Bible, we can't be that on Jesus. It's so many other areas, but not that I'm encouraging it, but that's okay. It's not the end of the world. We can fellowship, we can love each other well, but I think there's something to be said about one. Reading your whole Bible, you can see it in full proof as to what, all of what God is saying, and then meditating on the scriptures. The scripture says so anyways, I'll close the thought. I had a thought but I lost it, but anyways, this is yummy stuff.

Speaker 3:

I had a thought it's gone. Well, if it comes back to you, just jump in. Yeah, sure, well, I appreciate the fact that how you address the budging issue, and I do think that what that should do is helpful to that listener, particularly to draw them into a more open conversation right to explore scripture, because, like we said, you know, I mean, people have dedicated their lives to research on this and they still fall into different camps. And so I'd say, if you see that happening, like what, what's the overall? Like what are we supposed to do? What's that single mom supposed to do with what we're talking about? That's right, you know.

Speaker 3:

And so we have to figure out how, like you know how, how now shall we live? How should we move forward? And so you know, I, you know Southwest position is soft complementarianism, you know, and I and I love that, you know, I think that that is ultimately maximized, like it's God's gracious design for the church and for I love this flourishing for both men and women who have been equally created in his image. So you mentioned that and so you know, I just love like if we could just step into that with open hand. This is an area where I think that we can. We should be able to show charity Right and be able to talk a little bit about what that looks like.

Speaker 1:

And I think we're willing to have conversations. I think that's always it Like to know that, like man, this is a space where we literally are okay wrestling with it, and there's so much grace and I always say I'm okay, if you land somewhere different than we are, it won't offend me, I'll still love you, we're still brother and sister in Christ, or sister and sister in Christ, and it's okay. Like at first I was like I don't want anyone to be offended. And then I was like, wait a minute, people are going to be offended. There's no way that I can skirt that people are going to like you can't skirt around the fact that people are going to be offended, but I still think that there can be love and unity in the midst of us not agreeing, and so I'm always open for the conversation to say it's okay, even at the end of that, if we don't end in the same place.

Speaker 2:

It's humbling too right, because one of the things that gives me relief, and why we're so eager to talk with our people and just share, is that Bishop Obrist always said there's three things. We're going to be confused and not on the same page until Jesus comes. So the first one is when does the Holy Spirit dwell my soul so like, is it when I say this, or when I do this, or when I believe that, or when I feel that, or is it after I speak in an unknown tongue I have to do this? Or when I do that, like, when does regeneration happen? Yeah, exactly, when does my license change from hell bound to heaven now? The second is when is Jesus coming and how is he coming Right? So, is he coming before the tribulation? Is he coming in the middle? Is he coming after it's all done? Is it I'm ill? Is it pre-trib, is it mid-trib? We're going to talk about that until he comes. We're going to talk about him coming until he comes, right.

Speaker 2:

Then third is women in ministry. You know what I mean, what is what, and so my point is this For 2,000 years, way smarter folk than us haven't exactly figured out how we can all connect the dots on this conversation and I don't know, I think we're going to get to heaven. Don't y'all take this too far. Yeah, oh man, I think the third person of the Godhead has divinely I won't say inspired, but has divinely allowed a measure of ambiguity in his revelation and also in his sovereignty over certain things. I think and I don't know why, by the way, you know what I mean but God, god is in control. Yeah, and God has wanted this on some level, for us to not necessarily, and I don't know why. Yeah, and I think we're going to get to heaven and I think we'll laugh and be like, oh, no matter where you're at. Oh, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1:

So anyway, yeah, I love it.

Speaker 3:

Man, when you said the two, I couldn't help, and I'd hate to distill it down to something that's not as eloquent as you said. But when you're talking about the three things that are contentious that we tend to talk about most one was about punching my ticket to heaven, the other one was avoiding pain and the other one is somebody stealing my cheese or, like you know, undermining me. I was like they become very like if you take them down. Sometimes you have to be careful that you're not looking at this from a selfish motive.

Speaker 2:

That's right, that's right, that's right. Before you go on to, I want to insert in our people's hearts and minds like this idea of church. Paul wouldn't understand our Sunday. Yeah, yeah, yeah he would.

Speaker 1:

But he wouldn't.

Speaker 2:

he wouldn't feel comfortable, you mean, he wouldn't be okay with like flashing lights and like fog and like Like. So let me just put some things out there. And, cj, you keep us moving forward. But for the first two to 300 years of history, on its best day, church is in somebody's house. On its best day, its best day, church is in somebody's house on its best day. On its realest day, it's in the catacombs, the Roman tomb system, underground, hiding out, right. So there's not a pulpit, there's not a stage, there are no ushers. Right, it's literally a family potluck for three centuries. And so there's some things that modern ears are concerned about that weren't invented till like 700 years ago. So I think I'm going to botch the year. So let me just give a big number and say I think I'm going to botch the year. So let me just give a big number and say we didn't start sitting down in church till about a thousand years ago, like like the medieval ages. We came there and stood up.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

While Monk read something Latin and what's right and wrong and how women and men ought to show up. The picture for 300 years was here's a few couches, here's a living room, here's so like it's way more. It's why Paul can say Priscilla, my fellow worker, yeah, we had a house. It's 40 of of us. You see what I'm saying. So we need to be careful with how we we force the bible into our constructs as well. So we just got to be careful.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so good yeah, drawing definitive lines and it's good where the three of us are getting in a lot of trouble I know I know, Pastor Ricky at Southwest.

Speaker 3:

So I think, on the other side of that, one listener said that she feels that God has given her specific gifts, like teaching, that have deemed to be off limits and she was struggling in her journey as a Christ follower as a result, potentially not stewarding her gifts well that she feels had been given to her to help assist the body of Christ. So, yeah, I don't know, I kind of that was one of the ones that I heard and I was like, oh wow, she feels like the gifts that she you know she asked they're squelched because of some positions on scripture. So anyway, with that concern, the possible misinterpretation of biblical scripts has led to unnecessary, unjust restrictions for that ultimately withhold women for participating in the fullness of the New Testament. Led to unnecessary, unjust restrictions that ultimately withhold women from participating in the fullness of the New Testament call to believers. So how might we work faithfully to interpret and address specific passages that might be difficult to understand, like you mentioned, 1 Timothy 2 or 1 Corinthians 11?

Speaker 1:

Katie Cole calls it sticky floors. So a lot of times there are actually places for us to teach and places for us to actually use the gifts that we've given and we create. We kind of place our own selves in a box and so I feel like I didn't understand that until recently and it's like, ok, I could see. So I think that sometimes women are placing their own gifts in a box and saying like I can't use these, when really there are places to begin to use those. I think that's for any young gifted teacher, preacher. You don't just start on a Sunday morning preaching. You start in spaces like a membership class or a women's ministry or, if you're a guy, a men's ministry, and so I think there's a lot of people who just really need to need to to know that, like man, especially at Southwest, we're not placing you in that box. A lot of times you're placing it's your own insecurity to say like, hey, I've heard these things and I would just encourage this person to just find some godly women and some godly men who will encourage you in that gift and come alongside you and help you, give you spaces where you can develop that gift if you think the Lord's called you to that.

Speaker 2:

That's so good man, I resonate with that so deeply. To explore the other end of it you know my mama was a woman who had a gift that her religious setting didn't allow yeah Right. So my mama spent 43 years wishing that she could minister and share and, to Natalie's point, she made one.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Bible study at her home. Yeah, you know discipled women again and again. I didn't even know I was learning discipleship watching that girl.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Disciple those young teenage girls all those years. But I do want to just empathize with this. Whoever has asked this question said man, I'm so sorry that that has been your experience. At the same time, I encourage you to follow Natalie's challenge. Mommy said close mouths don't get fed. And if you got a gift and a calling on your life and you hadn't told your pastor, that's you. And here's three of us saying better, let us know something, because we need some help over here. And it doesn't mean that every gift fits in a particular house. God may want to do something different with your gift, but we're here to serve you and help you figure that out, and we're anxious to do that. And I'll echo Natalie's point too.

Speaker 2:

There's some people that come to church, right, Like I'll have guys go. Hey, Ricky, I got a bowling ministry, and you know, man, I just do it on Wednesdays at 4 am. And I got a bowling ministry. Hey, call me, Let me know when you can use it. Yeah, sure, A year know when you can use it. Yeah, sure, the year comes back. Ricky, you never called me about the bowling ministry that I want to do on Wednesdays at 4 am. It's just like well, okay, I need you to greet. I don't have a bowling ministry, Maybe one day, but right now I need you to greet and love people and get them ready to hear the gospel. I don't do that, that's not my calling. I got a bowling ministry on Wednesdays at 4 am.

Speaker 2:

So sometimes, to Natalie's point, you got to crawl before you walk. And what does it mean for you to stand in solidarity with the church and with the community and serve where there is service? And you know the scripture says if you're faithful over a few things, I'll make you ruler over much, and that's anybody with the gift. You crawl before you walk, and I think too many Christians get a calling and think they get an assignment the same day. That's just not what I've seen. You know like we're in a 3,000-member church now I spent years preaching to 10 people Y-E-A-R-S, Sometimes, God, you know there's anyway. There's something to do with that too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I still remember the day we were standing in the back of Auditorium 2 when Ricky walked up to me and he said do you preach? I think you were like you had only been here for like six months and I was like no, and you were like no, I think you do, and I was like no, I don't. But there's something about that too right, I stewarded what the Lord had given me and the Lord had given me spaces to grow in that, and those spaces were making an announcement in front of women or, um, making an announcement in student ministry or teaching in front of the students and learning. And it's like, man, I started small, I I was terrified every time I got up, you know, terrified, and I still am. There should be a fear of the Lord every time you have to open his word and give a word to people.

Speaker 1:

But I just there's so many cohorts out there for female leadership now and there's so many different groups that you can actually get into that, develop your gift of teaching and speaking, and I just there's, so we have so much access to things that we didn't years ago, and so I would just encourage any female who's thinking that they have a gift that maybe they don't know how to use, to facilitate that within those spaces. And then just also know that not every gift ends up on a church platform in a main service also. And that's for anyone that's me wanting to be on the worship team I love to worship. If you ever see me worship in church I have my eyes closed, but it doesn't mean I'm on the worship team also. So I think that's just stewarding gifts and learning and being developed.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you know sort of the person asking, you know misinterpretation questions, right, like like, how do we handle that? Because it is squishy, right. There's a couple of places where this completely yeah, you know. So here's what I do know the Bible agrees with itself, right, and so we got to understand. He saw Macaulay says this and he's so good. We got to remember that texts are placed in histories.

Speaker 2:

So his voice sounds just like I'm making up, that's actually a Kevin Van Hooser voice, but the whole idea is that it's something in scholarship and hermeneutics that we call the rule of faith. So how did the church in her histories understand and apply that verse to bring to bear upon the interpretation? And so, man, if the Lord's celebrating Phoebe here and Lydia there and Priscilla there, and there's neither Jew nor Greek, nor male nor female, and Priscilla there, and there's neither Jew nor Greek, nor male nor female, and man, women, salome and Mary and Mary are sent to be the first witnesses as to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and we see in the Old Testament the Deborahs and the Miriams and all these folks right. Then, if the Bible agrees with itself that's why I deduce that man, I think this is germane to the Corinthian experience and that moment of history. I'm not even saying it to the Corinthian experience.

Speaker 2:

In that moment of history, I'm not even saying it's the same thing after next year, the next year, yeah, and in the first Timothy 212, which is way later, by the way but as in that particular moment of history, that is applied to that particular church which would have been at Ephesus, right? And so that's where I flesh out on that, simply because the Bible agrees with itself. Yeah, so that's again I. I think, though, there's room. I think CJ can come out differently there, and I think Natalie can too. Right, but there are some hard line stances we take and soft complementarianism, right. So, like elder board, I just think husband of one wife means a man. Yeah, I think that's a man.

Speaker 1:

I really do, because that text has a history as well.

Speaker 3:

Exactly so yeah, yeah, I can't get the Greek to say anything different.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I tried and it doesn't.

Speaker 2:

I can do a little gymnastics, that's so good y'all.

Speaker 1:

That's hilarious.

Speaker 3:

Well, I mean, gosh, I love all this, but, natalie, I love what you're saying too. Man, as you were saying, I was thinking about, like, whether it's from the preschool to the platform, like, speak up about where your gifting is, because we all stand before God one day and give account for how we steward it. What did you do with the things that I gave you? And so I just think there's such an opportunity there that, hey, voice what you feel that you've been gifted with, so we can have conversations about where you can serve in the body of Christ. And, um, I just think, like, whether you can. So, whether you were a, whether you were a preacher or you ended up being a, just a mom of three, you know not, not just a, a mom of three. You know what I mean. Like God's like well done, I think, like he, he just equips us all differently in the body of Christ, and so, um, yeah, let us know. Let us know if you feel like you have a gift because you do.

Speaker 3:

Yes, do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1:

Regardless, I mean, we just talked through spiritual gifts. Just a couple of weeks ago there was an assessment that's on our church website that you can go take. I think it's important to know what your gifts are and use them for the body of Christ, because our church needs that, you know. And so we need the gift of teaching just as much as we need the gift of hospitality and prayer. And so it's, like man, regardless of if it's an upfront job or a behind the scenes job, it's all important to making sure that people come and know Jesus, like that's our goal. We want the Valley to know Jesus.

Speaker 2:

We just launched, soft launch, our pastoral residency. We're starting off with three. We'll get another two here once we find the other two. So there's two guys in it right now, right. And there's one gal, and you know, my mama's name was Jackie Jenkins and her generation missed her. Yeah, so I'm not going to miss ours. Yeah, we're not going to miss ours. Yeah, so I'm not going to miss hours, we're not going to miss hours. So, for you gals out there, you know I speak of little girls I'm seeing in our church starting to sprout, you know, and I look at Jocelyn. What's Jocelyn? I was 16. Young teenage gal sings and does all sorts of things, and I just watch her and I say, lord, if you do something in that soul, I'm going to take care of her. Yeah, if you want me to, I'm going to open up doors for her. Yeah, right. And you know, like I don't know, I see Jesus, yes, opening up doors. I just see them doing that. And wherever the Bible allows me to open up a door, I'm opening up in Jesus' name.

Speaker 3:

Well, it's interesting to me, ricky, that, as you're saying that about your mom, how a generation of people who sit under your pastoral, your shepherding, are impacted by Jackie Jenkins because of, obviously, first and foremost, jesus Christ and then through you but it is Jesus Christ and then through Jackie Jenkins, through you You've been formed and shaped and all of the things that match of what you say and what you do and how you live, and all of those things comes from what your mama taught you. So I just think, like man who can't say what, what you know, what I mean Like influence and stuff, yes, beautiful thing. So what are some ways that we can strive as believers and leaders to show up well in these conversations that we talked a little bit about it, but in the ever-changing culture that we're in?

Speaker 1:

So some kind of some final thoughts there, yeah, I think that Ricky just hit the nail on the head when he said that he's going to be someone who opens doors, and I could list the people who have opened doors for me, and I just think that that's just a sweet thing. So I think, if the Lord has called you to be a door opener, open the doors and encourage the women in your life, because, man, when I think of my life, I'm married to a strong man who is protector and provider, and he has allowed me to be a strong woman who leads at work but comes home and is led by my husband well. And so I think, if you're a man out there who has a wife who is a mom and stays at home, or a wife that works, man just showing up and loving them, protecting them, providing for them and then encouraging them in their gifts, not being intimidated by their gifts, I could imagine if I would have been married to a man who would have been intimidated, maybe, by my gifts and not allowed me. So I think that that's just a call to the guys out there support the women in your life who have a gift to lead and just love them, because we take a lot of grief for just being females.

Speaker 1:

I walk in every room and ask different questions than men.

Speaker 1:

When I walk in a room, it's just the reality I have to.

Speaker 1:

And so I think that, as you think about this conversation, just remember that I've probably thought of 10 other questions before I've even walked in a room and how I present myself before I even get approached about the subject about being a female. So just remember that we carry that with us, like I'm thinking about how I dress, I'm thinking about how I talk, I'm thinking about how I look, I'm thinking about you know who's in the room and who's not in the room. I'm thinking about so many things that men just don't have to think about before I ever even walk into a room. And so just remember, I think it's grace, we all just need to have grace. But as a man, I think my advice to men is just remember that we're thinking, we're really running, and not everybody does that Right. But I do feel like the women who are trying to lead well with integrity in those spaces are just saying like, how can I show up well and not make the room uncomfortable, knowing they're already uncomfortable when you're walking in?

Speaker 3:

So I think there's grace direct benefits of pastoral care from other women pastors, hands-on. So I think that there's some situations that cannot be appropriately addressed by a man in the same role, in regard to vulnerable women who've been a product of abuse or neglect, or some seeking counsel, guidance and support of an intimate nature, things like that. So I've firsthand seen that and they actually ended up being an avenue of moral failure for some men in that. So I've firsthand seen that, you know, and they actually end up being an avenue of moral failure for some men in that. So I've had the privilege to be able to reach out to Natalie in certain situations, have her to step in.

Speaker 3:

So if you're struggling I'm just speaking to men on this who might struggle with like, hey, I'm still having a hard time with this whole thing with women in leadership, sister in Christ and say, hey, can you step into the situation? It's more appropriate, you're better suited for it, you can serve this person well to have you edit, have you in their life and to speak God's sound counsel in and through you. And so, and that for me was such a gift because, like you know, I just I, you know I really appreciated it. I wasn't equipped for it and it was what was appropriate and I think it was God honoring, and so I just you know, for me I've that really shifted a lot of my thinking on, like, oh man, there's just there, there is a place for you here, and it is just, and it's such a beautiful thing as we, as we work to serve Christ together.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so good. Yeah, I can't add much to that. I would admonish those for whom, man, I just don't see soft complimentaries inary. In the same way, I would just say Mid-South was a safe place for you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's your church and you know, observe the unity of the church, and we can always get along and figure that out. I would just throw caution to the wind to say that, man, we can have different views, but do some soul searching to see if there's a hint of self-righteousness, bitterness, to use the word Pharisaism in your heart. What made the Pharisees bad is that they would make things that were gray in Scripture black and white in practice. You know what I mean, and so be be careful, because even if you are right, if you're a real women administrator, let's say you are, let's give you the benefit of the doubt, but you got a bad heart and a self-righteous heart. Well, that's wrong too and that needs to be looked at.

Speaker 2:

And so I've found that, for a lot of people that struggle with this is that, man, they can't stand women pastors, but they don't mind women pastoring, which is what CJ just said. So, like man, man, oh, please, please, come and pray for me. And oh, oh, my gosh, can the church help me do this? And oh, thank you so much for that encouragement and thank you so much for ministering to my son and all that kind of stuff. But the second you get on the stage all of a sudden, string to my son and all that kind of stuff. But the second you get on the stage all of a sudden. So be careful with your hermeneutic, because you are already already flying in the face of what you say, you believe, and so if you don't have that logic, you got to play it out. That's why I'm soft-topped in theory, because the logic plays out.

Speaker 3:

So, yeah, anyways, well, and human flourishing is meant for both men and women. And so remember, when one gender flourishes, both genders lose. So you need to, you know, know what's happening with your counterpart when you step into that, you know, draw those definitive lines. It's a both thing. And so, and I also think too, speaking to the men again out there, I can't help it. You know this pastoral piece, and I truly believe that many women have been forced to show up in unnatural roles because many men have refused to show up in biblical roles. And so you know we're talking, we talked a lot about this, ricky. You know abdicating father responsibilities and roles. You know escapism, you know and I'm speaking Peter Pan syndrome, pornography, video games. You know all the things. Speak on it. We must do our part to fulfill biblical mandates if we want to participate effectively in God's redemptive plan for all parties. Speak on it, brother. So read your Bible, do your work and show up. I know you're right.

Speaker 1:

So true, so true and so good. That's good stuff, you, so true and so good.

Speaker 3:

That's good stuff, you guys. Let's jump in Last. Let's do a few resources. Maybe we might find helpful or beneficial for people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we got several. This is if ever there was an episode where we want you guys to look at the show notes, it is indeed this one, and so we've got several things. For one, we've got our position papers for our church. We've worked exhaustively on these things, and a lot of scholars have worked exhaustively on these things. That'll take you to Natalie. I think it's at least 60, 70 scripture references that you can read.

Speaker 1:

And resources too. Exhaustive resources.

Speaker 2:

We define complementary, we define egalitarian, we define it all. And let you look at different views before we talk about our nuanced position. Jen Wilkin does a wonderful podcast that we've put here Our position papers. Like we said, nt Wright, who I think is B-R-I-L-L-I-E-N-T, talks about women in ministry and gospel coalition complementarianism for dummies, which is awesome. Mike Winger and his women in ministry debate, which is a good exposition on soft complementarianism that we think.

Speaker 2:

You guys, it's a video, so you know you don't have to read a thousand pages, but anyways, those are just a few things that I encourage you to walk through. But hear me, I just you know. You know, hey, if I'm going out on this one, let me go out with a bang. I just don't think you get to engage this conversation too much if you haven't read the whole Bible and so just like I'm just I'm sorry, but it's like man, I would never argue about Hamlet If you hadn't With vehemence, if I hadn't read it, so like if I just read the first act, I wouldn't have no confidence to argue what Shakespeare must have meant in act three. So be careful, like I'm just calling that out. Anyways.

Speaker 1:

And I would just feel strongly yeah, you know, feel strongly at all about that. I would also just encourage people to not let this be something that the enemy uses to distract you in your call, which is discipleship, and man, we just have, we just talk about it all the time. So, yeah, do your research and do all of this, but don't let, don't miss the mark of discipleship which we're called to do. And so let's just have some unity in this when we can.

Speaker 2:

Amen, Well said pastor.

Speaker 3:

Man, I can't say a better unity in the main things, charity in the secondary things, love in all things right.

Speaker 3:

Yes yes, Well, we guys, we want your, obviously, especially on this topic. I do want your question, comments and feedback here. Leave a comment on YouTube or, if you're listening, We'd actually prefer an email at the othersixdaysatsouthwestchurchcom. That's the number six. Yeah, we'd love to hear and we'll do another episode if you guys love it. We'll talk more about it. I'll make sure to follow up and answer some of your questions as best that we can and come alongside and help support you or whatever you need in the season.

Speaker 2:

Cj talk about out loud about some topics upcoming soon.

Speaker 3:

on the other six days, yes, oh, probably one on aliens maybe that's for you, sean Dawson.

Speaker 1:

That's for you, sean Dawson, we're going to go there.

Speaker 2:

Wherever they may be.

Speaker 3:

You know you guys have all been waiting for the eschatological ones. You know we're going to do those.

Speaker 1:

Down the road a little bit.

Speaker 3:

Hang in there. We got some fun ones coming for you guys. Definitely I'm going to have a lot of trouble on that one. Yeah, you are. Yeah, you are. Any last comments or questions before we wrap it up?

Speaker 1:

So good, you guys do such a good job with this. Good job Thanks.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm hermeneutically. I'm ill, but convictionally pre-ill. I'm just saying it now.

Speaker 3:

Well, there you have it, guys. Thanks again for joining us on another episode of the Other Six Days podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe, follow, share and like and spread the word and, as always, take what you've heard and turn it into something you can do to further the gospel in the world around you. Until next time, peace, Peace.