The Other 6 Days

The Beauty of Baptism | The Other 6 Days | Episode 42

• Southwest Church • Season 3 • Episode 42

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In this episode, we are joined by Young Song, our Southwest Residency Director, to discuss the act of Baptism... what it is, what it means and why it's such an important part of our Christian faith. We kickoff the episode discussing a little about our own Baptism journey's and then jump into a little about the biblical history, the significance as well as various aspects of how Baptism is performed. We wrap it up with some conversation about resources and opportunities for those looking to learn more or ways to participate in Baptism. 

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Speaker 1:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Other Six Days podcast, where we chat about life outside of Sundays and what it means to live from our gatherings, and not just for them. I'm your host, cj McFadden, and I'm here again today with our Southwest Church Residency Director, young Song hey what's up, guys? I'm uh well, guys are guys and gals, guys and gals, yeah, we have every. Yeah who?

Speaker 2:

am I? Who am I talking to right now?

Speaker 1:

You've got the whole audience here Awesome, hi, how's it going? Young's been with us before. You guys probably saw him on a few episodes ago but we're here today to have a conversation about baptism where it started, what it means and why we participate in it as Christ followers as well, as we're here to help provide helpful information and encourage those ready to take their next step in their faith journey. So, young, maybe we start off a little bit by sharing some of our own baptism experience. When, where you know the whole thing, what do you remember about your baptism?

Speaker 2:

Nothing, nothing at all. You know, as a proud and beautiful Korean growing up in the Korean Presbyterian church, I was infant baptized against my will and I actually never had the experience of. This is the only podcast where I think this is allowed never had the experience of being moistened in the church.

Speaker 1:

I don't think I've heard that one before moistened in the church.

Speaker 2:

All right, you know again. You know Presbyterian sprinkling. It's not like a full immersion, you get a little moist.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got a little bit of a yeah, a little sprinkle, did you, so you never did a read baptism or dedication or anything later.

Speaker 2:

No. So in the Presbyterian churches that I grew up in, if you got baptized as a child and you want to sort of, like you know, have a confession of faith as an adult, they do, you know, a rededication, but a lot of it's just more of a verbal affirmation, and so no water is involved. It's dry as a desert. Interesting, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I didn't know that. A dry baptism, I know.

Speaker 2:

No, not even a baptism. They won't call it a baptism. Yeah, it's a confession of faith. So it's like you raise your hand. I'm not sure if there was a Bible you put your hand on, I don't remember that. But then, first you pledge of allegiance to the flag, I think, but really it really is just in front of the congregation do you profess your faith and so forth and so forth, and so that was my experience.

Speaker 1:

Nice, yeah, okay, all right. Well, I was baptized in the ocean. I was fully immersed in the ocean at a YMCA camp surf at the age of 14. It was kind of cool because my parents were youth leaders on the trip and so some of the other, I think, high schoolers at the time were doing that, and so I wrestled with the implications of what life might look like after going public with my faith. So there was like a kind of little trepidation, you know, as to what that looks like. I didn't know if everything was going to change and how I was going to feel and if I was going to be different, you know. But people had heard that I believed, but baptism made it something that I didn't just say but something I actually, you know, did to show my affiliation.

Speaker 2:

So it's kind of fun, a beach baptism, you see, but that presents an issue for me where I would not mind getting baptized again. But now that I'm like, I believe I was baptized as a baby. I made a profession of faith. If I get dumped, it has to be epic. If it's not epic, I'm like I already went through everything. My place is secure. So if I go, you know I already went through everything. Like you know my place is secure, yeah, you know. So, like, if I go through it, it needs to be epic. You know it has to be on a beach, there has to be a bonfire, there has to be like bows and arrows and like a horse running across or something you know.

Speaker 1:

Seems like a part of a movie or something like that. Exactly, seems like a part of a movie or something like that. Exactly, yeah, exactly, I was thinking like dunk tank. I was gonna ask you what's an epic. What's an epic baptism?

Speaker 2:

for you, he said there are people, do you step all would I try to dunk you but you gotta, you gotta roll pastures, and whichever pastor does it, you know they dunk you and then they pray for you after there you go, yeah see, yeah, we can make another epic version for you. Life goals.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Well, let's provide the listeners with some biblical background I said biblical and support and special occurrences of baptism that we find throughout Scripture, you know, just help orient our audience kind of to what baptism what we see in Scripture.

Speaker 2:

So one of the major things that we see in the Old Testament is the concept of the sprinkling or the washing, especially of garments.

Speaker 2:

There was this Old Testament law that if you actually had a physical ailment and you were not to get a little graphic, but if there was an oozing wound that he got on clothes and the clothes would be unclean and part of what you have to do is either cut it off and then just some other ceremonial things where you would actually wash your clothing so it would be clean.

Speaker 2:

The high priests, before they go into the Holy of Holies, would actually have to ceremonially wash themselves to be clean in order to enter into the place and presence of the Lord. So we see this throughout the Old Testament. We see this throughout the Old Testament and by the time we actually hit John the Baptist, who's baptizing by immersion, you know a lot of scholars and academics say that he sort of took that out of somewhere. So there's no direct parallel between what John the Baptist did and like what's instituted in the Old Testament. So I really believe and there's a lot of scholarly work in this that he took the concepts of the washing clean from the Old Testament and applied it to really the immersion baptism of people as preparation for the Lord who was to come. Got it, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So it's kind of a cultural thing that was going on there, that they were used to to some aspect, and he used that application in a similar sense yeah, bubble washing, baptizo. Yeah, bubble washing idea, baptizo. Yeah, we see that water motif all throughout scripture, right, like Moses and Exodus, you know, helping people move through the depths of the chaotic waters from slavery to exile, yeah. And then, you know, we see Joshua delivering Israelites across the Jordan River. I mean, there's all kinds of water motifs all throughout scripture, right, I think one that's not really mentioned as much is.

Speaker 2:

I believe it was Elisha or Elijah, where the commander of an enemy, arnimie, was suffering from, I believe, leprosy or skin ailment. And he came and the prophet said go and dip yourself into this ocean and you will be clean. So even there there's this understanding, where it was a direct baptism, where you know Eli I'm going to slur my words so that, like Eli, something you know didn't directly baptize, but the command was to go and dip yourself into this water to be cleaned of this physical ailment, got it. So there are parallels that we see all throughout, you know, and again, water, as this concept of cleansing and cleaning is so deeply enmeshed in the law and the Old Testament stories.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, that's really good. Yeah, you see other stories of the Ethiopian eunuch right Getting baptized. You know Philip baptized the eunuch right getting baptized. You know Philip baptized the eunuch after explaining Isaiah's prophecy about Jesus in Acts and then after Peter's sermon in Acts. Actually, that's considered right, the 3,000 people were baptized, marking the birth of the church. But we'll talk more. A little bit about that, right? Well, that looks like yeah, we'll get into that, but yeah, anyway, all of that there's just. You know Paul emphasized baptism as identifying with Christ's death and burial and resurrection, and you know he was actually baptized after his conversion on the road to Damascus, right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So you know, it'll be interesting if baptism was done with the full Nazarite bow that Paul did. You know, do not shave. Yeah, you know, and then you just shave and you get washed and everything like that would be a completely different service altogether is that the epic baptism you're waiting for?

Speaker 1:

I can't grow hair, oh so, so I already the has around now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I can't I can't you know, it get very wispy if I try that way as you guys could tell, we're probably going to get off on some wild tangents on this one, which is perfect for this podcast, so it'll be helpful. So anyway, yes, we'll move through into kind of John the Baptist and Jesus baptism stuff here in a little bit. But what do we mean when we say baptism? Let's talk about what it is and why, as Christians, we choose to participate in it.

Speaker 2:

Maybe so this is. I mean not to get too far ahead, but there are a lot of different concepts of what institutes baptism and what validates baptism as biblical baptism. You know, in our context, I think it's safe for us to say that baptism is really a sign and evidence of the inner working of salvation that a person declares. So you know the reality of a person saying man, I believe in Jesus, he's my Lord and Savior. You know, I accept him. You know the common phrase I accept him into my heart. You know, as some people say, and from there the desire to be baptized is I want to declare this inner reality externally to people. So that's really what we understand with baptism In our current tradition here at Southwest Church, we do not believe that baptism confers salvation, although there's some churches that actually do believe that baptism confers salvation.

Speaker 2:

But that's a whole bunch of weeds to get into with that one. You know. Yeah, but yeah, for now, I think you know, looking at my own life personally, even though I wasn't baptized as an adult, there is still this understanding, even according to you know, the book of James, where it says faith without works is dead, not that works gives us salvation, but that if you're saved that there's an evidence to it, and baptism can be seen as an evidence of the salvation you already have.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's really good. Yeah, I love that as a kind of a that's an outworking of what we already possess. So the faith that we have and and, uh, like james says, we do works in light of that, right. So baptism is the expression what's already an inner work that's been done in us, right, salvation yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And plus, you know you get dunked into water and you have a good fun time with you, know, you know, if that's work, hey, I'll take it well, let's talk about some of the other elements around that too too, because, like you know, there's some.

Speaker 1:

You know there's obviously we'll talk a whole bunch about this, but there's, this is kind of a celebratory moment for others. You know, as we're buried, the idea that you know when we're, when we're baptized, we're buried with Christ and you know, you rise to newness of life and our sins are washed away it's kind idea, but this is really more as it is an outward expression to other people. The people in attendance are seeing you make that proclamation. So there is a little bit of a not an evangelistic kind of element to it, but there is a little bit of that to it, right?

Speaker 2:

So there's two things in what you said that yeah if you allow me to unpack a little, yeah yeah, no, I love it.

Speaker 2:

So the first one is really what we read even in Romans, where baptism is an identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. And so there's this half concept that a lot of Christians have, which is salvation is I'm forgiven for my sins, and they end up there and that's it. But what baptism shows is, as Jesus died and was buried, we go under the water and we identify with his death, but as he was resurrected and as he is ascended, when we rise out of the water, it's this understanding of we are a new creation. The old is gone and the new has come. There's this newness of life that we have in Christ. And so, you know, baptism is really the beautiful picture of the fullness of salvation. We're not just saved from our sins, but we're actually saved for new life. You know, the second part of it is, like you said, cj, this communal aspect. I feel like I'm not going to go off on a rant. I'm not going to go off on a rant, but one of the beautiful things that I've learned about interpreting Scripture is when we want to envision a lot of the things in the Bible.

Speaker 2:

A lot of times there were way more people than the stories tell.

Speaker 2:

So the story of Philip baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch a lot of times we think it's just two individuals besides a little puddle baptized and that's it.

Speaker 2:

But if you read the story, there's a whole retinue of people traveling with the Ethiopian eunuch and he is one of the most important people, if not the most important person, in the whole thing. So when Philip goes there and they stopped like all eyes are on this Ethiopian eunuch. So him being baptized is this public affair where all of these people dozens, if not hundreds of people who are traveling with him back to Ethiopia. They're witnessing this. And the interesting thing that happens in church history is the church in Ethiopia gets established and scholars say that's the beginnings of it. So baptism as a public, communal confession of faith is such a powerful thing to witness and it's so transformative for the community to not only celebrate like this is what God has done in your life, but for the person to declare this is what God has done in my life and to bolster the faith of Christians, but also for those who may not believe to see that and say man, there's something here there's something to it.

Speaker 1:

That's what I was thinking about too. Like, yeah, from the almost an evangelistic standpoint, that if there was someone who maybe hadn't made that confession of faith yet and sees that happen, they get to watch that and witness it and say, man, there's something here, there's something to that.

Speaker 2:

You know there's obviously has power and authority in your life, and so it's kind of uh, seen different scenarios where somebody getting baptized would invite your non-Christian family members and in that experience like that would open the door of conversation. For what was that? That was a little weird, but please explain it Like why. And in those conversations people have come to faith. You know, just because of that public decoration and what doors that opened.

Speaker 1:

Wow, yeah, that's good. That's a good example. So in Mark 1.10, we see Jesus was baptized to inaugurate his public ministry. He was also showing support for John's ministry as well, and you probably want to add to this. But and then to identify with us, it gave us an example of obedience, so a lot of us talk about it was part of his. You know Jesus made baptism part of his ministry and then part of our mission, but he set an example for us through the act of baptism.

Speaker 2:

When he did, I don't know any thoughts on, yeah, I think there's one element that's important to understand in the midst of that, which is actually Jesus did that to fulfill the law as well. So in order for Jesus to actually impart the fullness of righteousness to us, every aspect of the law needed to be fulfilled by him. So his completion of the fulfilling of the law in who he was and what he did in this earthly ministry. When we have faith in him, he really imparts that to us.

Speaker 2:

And so the cleansing and the washing of self even though he was sinless, there was still a ritualistic cleansing that he needed to go through, and so the fact that he actually went through it with John's baptism, versus the washing that he could get anywhere else, in a manner of speaking, really highlights just the beauty of what John the Baptist was doing and how John the Baptist set things up for Jesus.

Speaker 2:

The great line is like I'm baptizing you with water, but one will come will baptize you with fire and Holy Spirit, and so there is this beautiful tie in with that. But, yeah, when we look at Jesus, when we look at the story of Mark, when we look at the affirmation of Jesus saying John the Baptist is the greatest of all men because he's preparing the way for me. It does highlight in one sense the importance of baptism as both inauguration but also the importance of the fulfillment of the law through baptism and how that is actually transferred onto us through faith. Yeah, so I could technically say like technically I fulfilled all the law perfectly through faith in him.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because Jesus did it on our behalf. Technically, well, like you said, that's a beautiful picture of it. Technically, yeah, well, and that's like the, like you said, that's a beautiful picture of it. Like you know, john said, you know, one comes after I, whose shoes, sandals I am, you know, unfit to tie, you know, or yeah, anyway, but yeah, and then jesus was the fulfillment of that, and then all of the other prophecies that come along with that as well.

Speaker 2:

So it was just, yeah, it's a beautiful picture of what was going on there I mean, I I just wonder what was in John the Baptist's brain when he was like behold the Lamb of God. Actually, I already know we haven't touched on one yet.

Speaker 1:

Biblical references to, such as baptism of the Holy Spirit, believers baptism, baptism by fire, a second baptism or a second blessing. We see all these all throughout scripture and I think they kind of get you know. If we could bring a little bit of clarity to those, I think it might be helpful to our people.

Speaker 2:

So I'm going to talk about it in terms of almost like polar opposites. So I was, again, against my will, against my will, forced to be baptized as a child. That's called paedo-baptism. Then you have on the opposite side what they call believer's baptism, and so the concept here is believer's baptism is easy to explain, which is you should get baptized only if you have made the conscious decision to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. So baptism is an act that you do after you affirm salvation in your life.

Speaker 2:

Paedo-baptism is different.

Speaker 2:

It's the parents saying, hey, we want to make a covenant between our child and the Lord and baptize a person as a seal and sign of that covenant, so that when the child grows up, they will grow up in faith.

Speaker 2:

My personal stance is when I look at Scripture, the covenantal language and the language of covenant, where the things of the parents and the implication of parents to generations after is very much rooted in the Old Testament realities of covenant. But when we get to the time of Ezekiel and what Ezekiel points to in the future that's inaugurated, especially in the time of Pentecost and Acts, that covenantal understanding has shifted. So now we're not under an Old Testament covenant, but now we're in the covenant of the Holy Spirit, as we read about especially in the books of Romans and so forth, and so those are the two separate things, the concept that we are covenanting with God on behalf of our child. So we will baptize the child so that they will grow up in the ways of the Lord. I just happen to be one who ended up growing in the ways of the Lord, but sometimes in my life when you look it's like, ooh, that covenant stuff not working.

Speaker 1:

A little deviation there, yeah.

Speaker 2:

There's a little, hmm, hmm, Maybe we didn't baptize them deep enough. There's a little. Maybe we didn't baptize them deep enough, but believer's baptism is a baptism that we here at Southwest Church believe, which is it is really a sign and indication, a declaration from one who is saved, that you know, this is what the Lord has done, yeah, and this is who I am in him, yeah. So there's those two separate camps Now baptism of the Holy Spirit or baptism by fire. There's this understanding of what people call the second baptism or the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the other side, which is, when you're saved, you have the Holy Spirit as a sign and seal of your salvation. So a lot of times, when you look at these two separate camps, the second baptism or the baptism of the Holy Spirit is very much rooted in Pentecostal and charismatic traditions. Not all charismatics are Pentecostals, but all Pentecostals are charismatic. You know, a tiger is a cat, but not all cats are tigers. But in many charismatic traditions and Pentecostalism there's this concept where when you're saved, you have a part of the Holy Spirit but you don't really have the full power of the Holy Spirit, and so when you experience a second baptism, that's sort of the releasing of spiritual power and spiritual gifts. And that's why there's a heavy emphasis on tongues as a sign. That's important in Pentecostalism, because if you have tongues, it shows you were baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 2:

The second baptism, the Reformed camp, of which I am a staunch, stubborn, Reformed person. They believe that when you're saved you have the Holy Spirit in fullness. The sign and seal of the Holy Spirit, the sign and seal of your salvation is the Holy Spirit. Even Romans talks about how the indwelling of Spirit happens and it gives life to our bodies. In 1 Corinthians it talks about how we are the temple of the Lord and the Spirit dwells within. And so when we want to look at these two camps, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is just spiritual gift, evidence as the Holy Spirit filled you another time in fullness, as the Holy Spirit filled you another time in fullness versus the camp which you know Southwest really believes in, which is that you know here, when you're saved, you have the Holy Spirit in fullness. You lack, none of you know, you don't have like 90% of the Holy Spirit, but you have the fullness of the Holy Spirit upon salvation. Yeah, yeah, Is there another one?

Speaker 1:

No, I think we got it, cause well, that's helpful clarification Cause I said, yeah, baptism by fire, a second baptism or second blessing, but you, you covered all of that. Oh, there's one more. Oh, there's one more. Sprinkling versus dunking. This was the yeah. The other one yeah, immersion and sprinkling, yes.

Speaker 2:

Um so, um the. There's two methodologies of baptism that very popular what you call sprinkling, Presbyterian sprinkle. So as a baby I was a little spritzed, yeah, you know.

Speaker 1:

You didn't get poured over, it was a sprinkling. No, no, I think they had a spray bottle. Oh, okay, yeah, you're like a little plant, like a little succulent.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I missed me, moistened me, you know versus full immersion, and depending on what tradition you're from, some people put more validity towards immersion because what you're declaring is more visibly seen, and so some traditions will imbue more spiritual weight to that. Some traditions say, hey, that's just a symbol of salvation. Some people say the actual method has power as God imbues it through your faith. Other people will say, no, if you want to dive in, it's cool.

Speaker 2:

Sprinkling is just this understanding that's more akin to the Old Testament, where the common refrain is sprinkled clean, sprinkled clean. And so, again, infant baptism is rooted in Old Testament covenantal ideas, and so there is a bit more of an emphasis on that, where Old Testament a lot of it was like hey, sprinkle this clean, sprinkle that clean, take the blood and sprinkle these things. And so this clean, sprinkle that clean, take the blood and sprinkle these things. And so there is a part where the validity for them is well, the Old Testament talks about the sprinkling of water or blood for cleansing, and so we'll follow that methodology. New Testament, a lot of it is like no, you are immersed. Death, burial, resurrection.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and Jesus doing, modeling the same, right Through full immersion oh, maybe.

Speaker 2:

Maybe it was just like yeah, like a little.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, we don't include a splashing in the river, no, yeah, no, they um. But I and I had heard from people like the assumption for um, you know different faiths, uh, like especially catholicism, um, or you know, presbyterian, was that the sprinkling or the pouring happened? Um, mostly it was more of a practical piece, was their assumption? Because of a baby, right, you're not going to fully dunk a baby, fully immerse. So it was more of a practical kind of component.

Speaker 2:

If you really Google dunking babies baptism, you will see some horrific stuff. It's just like man like you got to call, like CPS or something.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's some gnarly things out there, so, but yeah, we were um, yeah, there's, there's a lot to unpack there with the immersion versus sprinkling and all of that. Um, I think too, though, but, uh, and I think we need to bring some clarity to this, you know, and then also honor those as we circle around and talk about, we'll get to, you know, thief on the cross, so that we can, you know, kind of capture what we're trying to, um, hopefully, um, help, you know, show people here. But a lot of this creates a lot of divisiveness in the church. You know, the pedo, uh, pedo baptism or infant baptism, um, versus child dedications, um, but it's very divisive and, um, I think, depending on which denomination you're a part of, and so bring some clarity to this. Like, let's go thief on the cross.

Speaker 2:

Well, before we thief it on the cross. You did bring up a good point that I forgot to mention, which is for those who are in the believer's baptism camp, which is you know, it's not about covenant, but it's about hey, this is the outward sign. There is usually an allowance for what we call infant dedication. You know, it's not about covenant, but it's about hey, this is an outward sign.

Speaker 2:

There is usually an allowance for what we call infant dedication. So it's not baptizing a child so that you form a covenant with them in God, but what it's saying is hey, you know, as a parent, I will do all I can and you know I'm asking that the church, you know, hold me accountable to this and partner with me in this and raising this child in the fear of the Lord. You know we see a bit of that with Hannah and Samuel, where Hannah dedicated Samuel into the temple for service to the Lord, and so you know a lot of the church traditions I've been in that do have believers baptism. They will have an allowance for parents to do child dedication saying I want to dedicate my child to God, hold me accountable as a parent to raise a child right and as a congregation, as my brothers and sisters, I'm inviting you into that process of parenting my child into the Lord as well. Yeah, so there is that.

Speaker 1:

And we do that here at Southwest and I do appreciate that too. It is both a personal there. You know, there is that and we do that here at Southwest and I do appreciate that too. As we come, it's kind of a. It is both a personal but also a communal kind of, you know, celebration and component as we come together to help raise that child up, to hold each other accountable and, yeah, I think it's kind of a, it's a great, it's a great opportunity and then also to push that child towards when they're ready to step into a baptism moment of their own that might involve, you know, immersion or something like that at some point.

Speaker 2:

Just super soaking yeah.

Speaker 1:

And you've got all kinds of baptism ideas. There's spray bottles. You know the ice bucket challenge.

Speaker 2:

Just everything, anything you want. What's funny is one of the churches I was a part of, you know part of it was logistics. We didn't have a pool or a tub or anything. Yeah and um, the senior pastor was, um, really presbyterian in his upbringing but he really wanted to immerse, so he faced his tension. So what he would do is he would get a big bucket and when people were kneeling to get baptized he would get the largest scoop of water in his head, literally just like make sure, make sure he got it all. It was like half sprinkling, half dunking, like a weird compromise.

Speaker 1:

It's almost like a Nacho Libre right there with the baptized.

Speaker 2:

I know I think if it was appropriate he would do that. He would do this as close to dunking as possible.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you got to come away with some pretty substantial water on you, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

You want to need a towel after, instead of going like, okay, I was baptized, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I've seen them where you do the immersion, where we've done it, and you get them under. They're too tall for the tub or it's like kind of an awkward, you know. Angle.

Speaker 2:

And you don't quite get the full forehead, so you kind of finish it off with a with the full dunk. You know, yeah, yeah, it's a trick to the trade, yeah, the trade, yeah. But going into thief on the cross, I think it's an important point to make, where there's some church traditions that fully believe if you are not baptized, you're not saved, and so the story of the thief on the cross is a beautiful, beautiful foundational anchor when it comes to understanding salvation. Now, when you look at the different gospels, it's pretty clear that the penitent thief on the cross was actually one of the people mocking Jesus. So it wasn't like the whole time people were mocking Jesus. He's like no or sorry, sorry, no, no. But he was there among the mockers and something happened in the midst of that where he had this realization of like ooh, no, no, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What's going on? This guy's different, yeah. So up until that very point, he's not on camp Jesus, he's not on your team Jesus, he is fully on the side of the mockers.

Speaker 2:

But then the thief recognizes and he actually provides a good model of what a profession of faith looks like. At first he goes like whoa, this guy is innocent, we're guilty. So it's a confession of sin. First John says if you say you are without sin, you are a liar. The truth of God is not in you. 1 John says if you say you are without sin, you are a liar. The truth of God is not in you. So there's a confession of faith where it's like yeah, you're innocent, jesus, we deserve this. And then he says Jesus, remember me when you go to paradise.

Speaker 2:

In Romans it says if you believe in your heart and profess with your mouth that Christ is Lord and God raised him from the dead, you will be saved and from the dead you will be saved. And so the acknowledgement of when you go into paradise, remember me, is an acknowledgement that Jesus will resurrect and that he is Lord and has authority to actually do something about his soul. And you know it's like remember me, is that acknowledgement of it? So it paints a couple of things. Number one, it shows that right after that, the thief dead, no baptism, and so baptism does not confer salvation.

Speaker 2:

Number two, that instance actually affirms what Romans tells us. You know about what it means to be saved. And really, number three, it shows that you know it's not by previous works or future works. You know, if we believe that baptism itself confers power, that in a sense we have to say like, if we have to be baptized to be saved, then we need a work to be saved, and that shows that no, it's by, as Ephesians says, grace through faith alone, not by work, so that no one can boast.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. And in the case of the thief, thief to live on in order to perform those works, which wasn't the case, right? So it's fully you know, and what and what he did at the cross was enough that Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise, right?

Speaker 2:

Yes, so, and it really is, um, um, just an amazing argument against the thought of oh, I'm saved because God knows what I will do for him, and so I'm saved because one day I will be baptized. I was like no, no, it doesn't work that way.

Speaker 1:

Thief on the cross. It's the heart issue. Yeah, I know and I love. There's another one I found. Paul in 1 Corinthians 1.17 says for Christ did not send me to baptizeize, but to preach the gospel. Yeah, so even he, and himself as much as he, you know. He says, like he kind of delineates between those two right there, saying like obviously if baptism carried such a salvific weight, you know paul wouldn't have made that statement or said like I'm here to preach the gospel, not just to be baptized.

Speaker 2:

So no, no there is, and he was baptized yes, there, there is um one tricky issue in the book of Acts. Yeah, when was it Paul or Peter? I forgot, I think it's Pete.

Speaker 1:

It might be Pete, I think it's Peter, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Where they go and they meet a group of people and it's like, have you been baptized? And they say we've only had John's baptism. Yeah, and so then he prays and he, you know, prays and the Holy Spirit fills them and you know there is that. So this presents a theological tension point, because the people who believe in second baptism, that's really the anchor for them to say, you see, like it seems like they were saved and then they got prayed for and received the Holy Spirit. So that's one of the proof texts on that side of things. But what some scholars and academics say is, if it was the model to follow, you would see more teachings or instances about it.

Speaker 2:

Number two Acts was a transition time. So the way the Holy Spirit operated before Acts and during and after Acts there's a paradigm shift with Pentecost. So some scholars say, no, this is just a transitional thing. Other people would say they had a concept of salvation but they weren't fully saved, because salvation, according to Romans, is really tied in with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to give life to our body. So the fact that they had a profession of faith but not the Holy Spirit might mean that they weren't fully saved or they weren't actually saved. It's like you know you have people who go to church and they're good Christians, but it's like, just do something. Yeah, so there's different ways of looking at that text to actually interpret it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, there's a I mean, what is it when he's talking to? When Jesus is talking to the Pharisees, he says you confess with your mouth that you know that, uh, that you know me, but your hearts are far from me.

Speaker 2:

Uh, it's uh, you search the scriptures because in them, yeah, you believe that there is life and there is. That it uh points to me and yet you've reached to come to me and and I think that might be the text, but yeah, I might be off on that one.

Speaker 1:

No, I think that's good. I'm packing the thief on the cross and those components. So this kind of leads us to. This is all a ton of good discussion, but what are some good to knows or some key takeaways? So, as we wrap this kind of up, what that you think would be beneficial to make sure that people walk away with?

Speaker 2:

regarding baptism, I think the biggest thing is when you look at scripture through and through, old Testament to New Testament, the emphasis is on faith and not the form of things. You know, when you look at Hebrews and the hall of faith, and by faith they did this, by faith they did that, you know. It really is this emphasis of again, I've not been baptized as an adult, I was baptized as a kid, but yet that does not define my relationship with God, because my relationship with God is defined by faith and so understanding baptism as really a blessing of the Lord to proclaim who he is in our lives and a blessing to the people to see that work in us. But ultimately it is about you know what do you believe about God and what do you believe that God believes about you. You know that's the most important thing.

Speaker 2:

And so thief on the cross, again, that's full grace. This is a crazy, crazy grace where it's like like literally, you see this guy who was like mocking you just moments before and is like going to die right after and you're saving him. You're like I'll see you in paradise. You know like that is how God looks at us. Yeah, you know he does not desire that any perish, but that all come to that saving faith, to life, you know.

Speaker 1:

Well, and I think, yeah, and you nailed it. But the key piece, you know, even though we've reiterated, baptism is not a condition of salvation but evidence of it. You know, and it's already a. You know, it's a, it's something that's taken place inside of us through the Holy Spirit. You know, prior to that, the water doesn't do anything, doesn't hold power in and of itself. But in and of itself, the reason why we push baptism really hard is it's a great opportunity, right, it's a point of obedience as well as a point of discipleship, Like we talked about, there's evangelistic opportunity in it. You know, it's a proclamation of your own faith. I think it's a great next step in salvation, right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I highly recommend you Kudesh. That's a full endorsement. You know, there's two things that Jesus says we should do it's baptize and it is a communion. I mean technically, you say you'll go and make disciples, disciples of all nations.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but baptize, those are discipleship.

Speaker 2:

And I think again, for me there's that personal where it's just good for us to be given that amazing grace to declare what he's done in such a tangible, visceral, powerful form, Like there's just, there's something so powerful in seeing somebody just say man, Jesus is my Lord and Savior, I affirm that. And then when they go into the water and then when they come out, it's just a powerful thing to see. It's such a powerful thing. But then it's also what it does for both believers and non-believers. It is a stance and declaration of faith that is celebrated by believers and that it challenges non-believers to say, okay, like, like, what's going on, Like, like, like, and we pray that God will stir the heart to say, yeah, like, like, like what's going on. There's something there I want to know. You know, or you know, the FOMO effect of. I want that, I want that.

Speaker 1:

It's like that looks refreshing. I want to get I know and everybody's cheering, everybody's like.

Speaker 2:

Nobody's cheering for me when I go show. I want to party, you know. Yeah, but there is this understanding of the beauty of the body of Christ celebrating when another member comes in, yeah.

Speaker 1:

That's such a powerful testimony to the world, well, and even like we've and that's such a to all of the things. So, yeah, that's beautiful. Well, as always, we want to make sure that our conversations are engaging, but we want to provide people with helpful resources and, basically, off of what? We were just talking about. We actually have some baptism opportunities here at Southwest. We have some I don't know. You want to touch on a couple of those.

Speaker 2:

If you ever want to get baptized, or if you ever want to talk about baptism and learn more, just email info at southwestchurchcom or you could call the church and ask to speak with a pastor Anytime, any day. We would love to talk about this and we would love to have opportunities to you know, baptize. We also have the revival coming up next week and at the Sunday after the revival there'll be a time for baptism, and so if you're watching I mean this might actually not come out by that time, but anytime again, there's baptisms that happen on a regular frequency in the church, so those are opportunities as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we have. Yeah, so at the time of this recording, we do have revival services for January 22nd through the 24th. It's a big piece at the end of revival as a baptism opportunity those evenings. So if you guys are interested and you're here, we'd love to have you a part. We also have various other corporate opportunities throughout the year, like our Rooted Sundays.

Speaker 1:

So, like Young said, just reach out to the church, ask for Pastor of the Day. Our discipleship team would love to help walk you through what that looks like as well. And then, actually, one I wanted to mention is we can actually facilitate online or remote baptisms. I know that sounds crazy, but we're currently developing a whole process in place to help train and facilitate remote baptism opportunities with friends, family members or local lay leaders, and so we actually have someone who attends online and lives remotely who's going to be getting baptized in their bathtub soon, and it'll be taking place with some of my online volunteers to go and help facilitate that. So it's so cool. So, even if you're not near us, there's opportunity for this to take place If it's something that you know God is stirring in your heart. So to that point.

Speaker 2:

Uh, philip, who baptized um the Ethiopian eunuch, was not an apostle, he wasn't. And eunuch was not an apostle, he was a deacon, which was basically he waited tables. And so I feel like there's some traditions where they hold it to a certain extreme, and so it's like oh, if you're not this title or that, but here in Southwest Church again, reach out to us, talk to us. There's so many opportunities and we just love to celebrate with you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you brought up a great point that it's not left to only pastors to baptize, that we truly believe that this can be done by anybody who understands what's taking place, and so and we have the opportunity to come alongside and help facilitate that and to even we'll even, you know, do a little like class, a little teaching, you know talk about some of these elements and help people feel, you know, comfortable as they step into that. So that's good. That was a good point. Also, we want to make sure we give you guys some resources on baptism. You can always check out the Bible Project that's one I like. You know you get a lot of pictures and stuff, so they got some good stuff in there. Gospel Coalition they have an essay We'll include that in the show notes as well the Baptism of Jesus and kind of all the elements around that. Some of the stuff we talked about. There's a few others. Do you want to touch on those?

Speaker 2:

One of the best books that I found is the Four Views of Baptism. It's a little dense, but it really unpacks in such specific detail some of the stuff we talked about in terms of infant baptism, believer's baptism and so forth.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, that's good stuff. And then we've got On Birth by Tim Keller and a few other just different links to resources and stuff that you guys can find in the description. Also, we always want your questions, comments and feedback, so you leave a comment on YouTube or, if you're just listening, you can email us at theother6days. That's the number six at southwestchurchcom, and so Young.

Speaker 2:

Any last comments or thoughts before we wrap this up? When I get baptized, I want it to be epic, epic, epic. I'm waiting, maybe, for my 50th birthday there you go.

Speaker 1:

Maybe I like that. I can't wait to be there for it. Well, there you have it, guys. Thanks for joining us again on another episode of the other six days podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe, follow, share and like, spread the word and, as always, take what you've heard and turn it into something you can do and the world world to further the gospel in the world around you. Until next time,