The Other 6 Days

The Value of being Multiethnic | The Other 6 Days | Episode 47

• Southwest Church • Season 3 • Episode 47

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Join us in this episode as we revisit an important topic about the value of being a multiethnic church. We explore some of the hurdles, challenges & triumphs in upholding this value & endeavor to answer some of the cultural questions being posed around this topic.

SHOW NOTES & RESOURCES:
- SW Position Papers on the Image of God - (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/wxmu9nuon7t5mjt30cvyl/SW_ImageOfGod_v4.pdf?rlkey=3m91ic0irb9012xqxuspp0k7e&dl=0)
- The Other 6 Days Podcast - Season 1: Episode 3 (Race & Relations in America / Q&A:
- Part 1 - (https://youtu.be/sdACE6pQOj4?si=TbncE3ZoWcDVE7ZI)
- Part 2 - (https://youtu.be/2cg_Q7Sh-pM?si=IovJ4mvKya1SrTYt)
- Tony Evans: Oneness Embraced (https://a.co/d/ajXWgCI)
- Reconciliation, the Kingdom , and how we are stronger together
- Center Church by Tim Keller - Doing Balanced, Gospel-Centered Ministry in Your City (https://a.co/d/8QASmeU)
- A balanced theological vision for ministry based on over 20 years of ministry in New York City
- Albert Tate's Book  - How We Love Matters (https://a.co/d/jicwQc1)
- A call to relentless racial reconciliation
- Grace to Overcome: 31 Devotions on God's Work Through Black History by Brian Loritts (https://a.co/d/hPJjVIi)
- Previous SW messages & Series:
- The Gospel & Race - 2020 Message Series 
- Justice Series - 2021 Message Series

For more information or to join the conversation, head over to https://southwestchurch.com/theother6days or email us at theother6days@southwestchurch.com

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Speaker 1:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Other Six Days podcast, where we chat about life outside of Sundays and what it means to live from our gatherings, and not just for them. I'm your host, cj McFadden, here again, as always, with Pastor Ricky Jenkins, as we revisit an important topic today, exploring some of the hurdles, challenges and triumphs, and upholding the value of being a multi-ethnic church. So to kick us off today, ricky, could you give us a little glimpse into your and April's conversations, some thoughts, excitement and concerns on what it means to be a multi-ethnic family and raise up multi-ethnic children in this day and age. Wow, what a question, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, me and April, you know, have a blended family, racially right. I'm chocolate, she's vanilla, our children are caramel. I'm from probably somewhere around West Africa, my people, she's from the caucus mountains, and so and it brings.

Speaker 2:

it brings beautiful differences to to the the context of relationships, raising, raising babies that that you know, obviously identify greatly with both sides of how God has chosen to make them up and that presents a lot of beauty and fun and and cool stuff. At the same time, it presents challenges in the way of, oh yeah, um case in point, um, my children, um, when we walk around the neighborhood, my children naturally care, freely walk into people's yards. They just naturally do it like a kid and it's great. And a few years ago we were walking and I noticed that they just kept walking in people's yards and I immediately scolded them, said says, don't ever walk in someone's yard.

Speaker 2:

Well, where I come from, right, um, you couldn't do that. Yeah, because of the racial component of Mississippi and where I grew up, that's a call to the police, it's just, it's just how it translated in how I was raised. And so my point is there are times where I want to put some of my Mississippi cultural, racial trappings on my kids. April naturally wants to put her Sacramento, northern California trappings on the kids, which is just total opposite.

Speaker 2:

And so we have to do a lot more work to just make sure that we are giving them not our stuff, but God's stuff, which really is fun. The world is going to see them as black people, yeah, but they truly are biracial, and so we're trying to not give way to just what the world expects of them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And to give them the beauty of who God has made them to be. So it's fun, cj. It's challenging. Yeah, right, like you know, we're're pretty apolitical household. We throw rocks at both sides. Yeah, you know what I mean, uh, which I think is very normatively a christian, african-american thing. Yeah, I qualify that with christian. Yeah, okay, um, so anyway, that's holding the story. So you know, we're naturally kind of saying, hey, we pray for whoever our president is. We do this, we, we do that. Mom, are you political, dad, all the time? Dad, are you Republican or Democrat? Well, in my house I can't answer that question. You know what I mean. For one, I'm not sure. Secondly, you know, whatever I say becomes kind of this thing, right, and so you know that's more of a pastor's kid kind of thing issue, but it's, it's.

Speaker 1:

You asked me a wonderful question it's beautiful. We have no clue what we're doing. What about you?

Speaker 2:

Well, you seem to be doing a great job.

Speaker 1:

Well, yeah, for me this one's kind of I mean I grew up here in the Coachella Valley, you know haven't been exposed to, I would say it's more of a like a bicultural experience, you know, with the Hispanic thing, and so it's beautiful though to watch my daughter, you know, embracing and you said it well like the trappings of maybe what we had or didn't have even, and having to embrace that a little bit different, as I watched my daughter go to La Quinta high school, which is predominantly, largely Hispanic, and watching her engage with the diversity in her friendships.

Speaker 1:

And so it's a beautiful thing though I love seeing this like her, uh, her go to quinceañeras and, like you know, even adopting the mannerisms and language of her friends and all of her I mean, the majority of all of her friends are Hispanic, okay, and so she kind of kind of takes in, you know, and becomes kind of a part of that culture and their cuisine and all of the thing. Like, I love watching my daughter embrace it. And so, even with Ezra, watching him take on, his exposure has created an attraction for more exotic features of girls from different ethnicities, sure, and so I just love seeing my kids step into that. Teaches me things every day you know what I mean. Stretches me, grows me. You know all this stuff, it's just it's.

Speaker 2:

it's just it's fun it's challenging but it's so good. Do you guys ever kind of project into who your kids are gonna marry?

Speaker 1:

yeah, a little bit. We kind of, you know, we tease it out, so what's? The readout for ezra versus addison, like addison's coming home with who well, right now she's got, uh, her, she has just a, you know a, you know totally white, you know midwestern boyfriend, you know kind of thing, but I don't know, I hers is a little more, I'm not sure it'll kind of be yeah, uh, the exposure if she gets older, I think college and stuff like that, but it might be the high school sweetheart thing for her which was, you know, just happened to be proximity.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Um, but Ezra definitely will be like uh, there'll be some ethnic diversity there for him and stuff like that's his.

Speaker 2:

He's just. That's just where he's at. That's where he's at.

Speaker 1:

And that's so cool man.

Speaker 2:

So we have fun. We don't know, our kids are kind of young, but we're pretty sure Andy, my little girl six, is going to come home with like a Latin heartthrob I can see, you know like he's just going to be a movie star.

Speaker 1:

He's going to look amazing. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to be insecure around him. That kind of thing. Uh, Grandy, my middle boy, is coming home with the darkest chocolatiest skin woman You've ever that might be Nigeria. Yeah, Like he may not even do African.

Speaker 1:

American.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, he may do Africa Like I could just see him pro black. Yeah, Like you know, so I, I just see you know Grandy being like coming home, I'm like she being like coming home with, I'm like she, he come on with shaquita like it's it's gonna be real. Cam is coming home with becca?

Speaker 1:

okay, like becca mckenna.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it will be her first and middle name. Like he's coming home with a white gal from the desert yeah, from the caucasus mountains like it is going to. But you know, that's kind of it feels like that's how the holy spirit seems to be pointing that we'll see right. But yeah, we say it all the time. That's kind of it feels like that's how the Holy Spirit seems to be pointing that we'll see Right. But we say it all the time, that's funny All the time.

Speaker 1:

I love that. You know. Look at the diversity in their spouse selection potentially like that. It's just. I love that. It's a great conversation.

Speaker 2:

And the cool thing about this discussion today is that it's way easier to have it. Yeah, it was even five years ago. Yeah, I think, I think, I think now, when you look at families, especially in our church, you just see, even if it's a white family, you see, okay, the daughter has married an asian guy. Or you see a black family and the son is married a latino girl, and you just see so much more of an openness and so far that you know, natural, the progress, progression of our country, with more folks coming in more family, all the diversity that's happening, so it's an easier conversation to have than it was, so I'm excited to have this conversation, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well then, let's jump in with a quick recap maybe, on what do we mean when we use the word multi-ethnic and why is that important?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so you know, we wrestled over this stuff. We're a gospel centered, multi-ethnic, inter-directional church. We love discipleship. We say that every Sunday at Southwest and there's all sorts of conversations out there. There's academic conversations, there are governmental conversations and let's call it what it is. It has become somewhat of some some buzz terms multicultural, ethnic, all this good stuff and even now, right, the muddiness of the political sphere and the way of DEI and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2:

Well we're biblical and we don't get. We don't get to react to culture, we get to be proactive to scripture. And when we read our scripture we see over and over again, uh, this calling of God's kingdom to expand itself outside of its original confines, with Abraham and his family, to the point where Abraham's seed would number as much of the stars of heaven as the sands of the seashore, meaning that God's heart, as we see it depicted in Revelation 7, revelation 9, in eternity, where there's all tribes, all nations, all tongues coming together through this covenant of Jesus Christ. So multi-ethnic is the word we use, because that's the word the Bible used, and so in the New Testament Greek we see this word all over the place ethnos, which was the idea of nation In scripture, the idea of ethnos was catchall is too casual a word but the right word is an encapsulation of all things, and so we can define multicultural right.

Speaker 2:

And we're going to do that in a minute. We can define what it means to be multiracial. We're going to do that in a minute. Ethnos was used in scripture as somewhat of an encapsulation of all of those entities. Got it in this beautiful vision through which the holy spirit sees it right. So, um, ethnos captured my nationality. It captured my culture. It captured in the old testament times. It captured to some extent not not a large as you and I think of race. They didn't think of race as we did. Oh, it's more like italian.

Speaker 1:

It wasn't white italian you know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

So that's a whole other conversation, but it seems to be ultimately for us biblical right. So that's why we said multi-ethnic over multicultural and over multiracial. No, multi-ethnic because God is calling us towards a heaven where all nations will be represented and we want to emulate that in our and you know kind of in our ethos of how we do church now. So multicultural kind of a broader concept, I think, cultural expressions like language and traditions and values and histories. On the other side there's multiracial, and that's just kind of our physical characteristics, like obviously I'm black, cj is white, right, but the multi-ethnic is like just an identification of a plethora of things ancestry, heritage, history, origin and to some extent race comesians 2, that we are rejoicing in that middle wall of partition that has been removed from us, trusting the power of Jesus Christ to make our commonalities much stronger than our differences with one another, for his sake, for his fame, for his glory. So that's kind of what we mean when we say multi-ethnic.

Speaker 1:

That's great. Yeah, I love the idea of multi-ethnic too, cause, like even for me, just in our conversations about it and as a you know, study and explore more and we, you know, we kind of over the years you know me and you just kind of having these conversations and like it's just been a beautiful thing, because for me it's a, it's more of a um, less of a, like a wrapped up identity, specifically to something, Like you said very well, it's in the middle.

Speaker 1:

It's this kind of expression of and an invitation to. It seems so inviting to me and so there's so much opportunity to it and it's kind of like, hey, all come and join as we celebrate and express ourselves in this way, and so it's more celebratory to me that's the only real word that I could give to it, and so that's how I embrace it and that's how I step into these conversations and it it really kind of changes how you, how you, how you kind of you know, engage with it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, you know, once you see it as believers, regardless of how we were raised, because, of what we saw right. When you you see the Holy Spirit inspiring the scripture to celebrate I love your words right it becomes a part of my new sensibilities and sensitivities and I look for it and I long for it.

Speaker 2:

I love what you said, an expression of an invitation to you know, and I think that may be happening at Southwest to a large extent, and it's beautiful. I'll tell you a story before we move on. What is her name? Roz, ms Roz Roz Roz Musako. She's. We move on. Uh, what is her name? Ross? Miss ross ross, uh, ross musaco. She's. In italian, her name is gary.

Speaker 2:

They do this, they do that. They sound nothing like this, by the way, but I love them. Wonderful couple. Uh, gary may be close to 75. Uh, our older couple love our church, been here forever and we were hanging out not too long ago and they said, ricky, we think about it all the time. How, in 75, our older couple love our church, been here forever and we were hanging out not too long ago and they said, ricky, we think about it all the time. How in the world did some black guy from Mississippi come to us 150-year-old white folks out here in the Coachella? It's crazy. And now I come to church, I look around and say this place looks just like heaven. It's amazing. And I think God in his heart Genesis 127, who created us in his own image, wanted that to be part of the flicker of what it means to be his children. That man stuff that seems to separate us out there does not separate us in here, and we're getting better because of it. So, anyways, I love that about our church.

Speaker 1:

Yeah me too. It's such a and I love that we've we've crafted and created a safe place to have these conversations and to engage in this stuff. It's so, it's not always easy, but it is, but we know it's fruitful and beneficial and it's all, and I would just say it's always beneficial and so it's just been. It's been fun to journey, that you know.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's, you know it's been. I love how you express that and I like your notes. When you talk about Genesis 127, you say diversity wasn't an accident, there was intent. It wasn't accidental, it was intentional.

Speaker 1:

And I love that.

Speaker 2:

And that is the heart of God. We see that all over scripture. But you know, and I love how you said, creating a safe place where the isms that prevent reconciliation in the world seem to be diminished in the church. Like you said, it's not perfect, it's not easy, but in the world victimization is loud not in the church. In the world, the way we've always done, it is loud, not in the church in the world, yeah, but your people did this and your people did that is loud in the church.

Speaker 2:

Not so much because I think something about the Holy Spirit when we come together. It's the one place where we both agree that he's Lord and we both agree that he's coming soon and we both agree that he's called us to lay aside our differences for the sake of the hope, like we inherently and intuitively sense that. I'm not saying we're good at it, but we sense that and it gives us somewhat of a boon to lean into that increasingly. And I think that man, dan Green's on our team and Dan talked about one of his colleagues at another church big old church, my buddy's church and she came to our revival service and she saw our 49 singers on stage and she says you know, know what a lot of churches kind of say multi-ethnic and generational, but I see that happening on your stage and it doesn't look manufactured. That's the point I'm trying to make. Yeah, like I think, I think I think it's wrong to manufacture it yep I totally agree.

Speaker 2:

I think what you need to say is this is what god says. So we're going to try and be our best and we're going to keep it before you and we're going to see what happens.

Speaker 1:

You nailed it. So for me, I, I trust that there's a fullness that God has for us to experience here and now, not just only in heaven.

Speaker 2:

That's right, we'll get to that.

Speaker 1:

Practicing now what Jesus will perfect later. But I trust that he has a fullness for us that we can step into and choose to experience here and now. And so it's just beautiful to walk that out. Yes, and that comes with the highs and lows and all the things. But man, it's just.

Speaker 2:

You know, I I trust him, yes well, I trust him too, and you know, once you've tasted it, it's hard to go back.

Speaker 1:

Oh man, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, it's just like.

Speaker 2:

There are people that you know. People leave churches all the time and they come back. Everybody, who, everyone who leaves comes back. And when they come back, you know and I get it right like there are terms when god does call you with yeah, it's all good, right, I don't care where you get your starbucks, just go have some coffee.

Speaker 2:

So like when they come back they say, yeah, you know it's, it's just what it wasn't us, it wasn't us yeah, and you know we never go deeper than that, but in my heart of hearts I believe that us is that?

Speaker 1:

yep, you know what I'm saying, absolutely because because they're over there preaching, they're.

Speaker 2:

Every starbucks serves coffee, so they're over there serving coffee too, and it's good, yeah.

Speaker 1:

But man, if something happens with my coffee when I'm having it with cj, yeah, that doesn't happen when I'm having it by myself if I can use that metaphor well, and I think our expression, you know, and I don't want to belabor it too much, but we it stretches everybody and so on all sides, right, we've talked about this.

Speaker 1:

As far as like music styles, and all these different things, but I love to watch people step into that and to be stretched, and I think it sets them up to do what the gospel is calling us to do on a larger scale.

Speaker 1:

There's, there's just there's more than we even know to be had in that, and that's just, it's, just, it's so fun to watch people get outside their comfort zones and start to be like, hey, actually you know, and and I think that's when we start really getting down to some some, some really important things and then watching people be able to have conversations outside of, like you know, context or things that they wouldn't have done before.

Speaker 2:

It's beautiful, that is beautiful man. It's sweet and and it's funny, it's fun when we allow it to be natural natural that's what I'm trying to say not manufactured.

Speaker 1:

there's some intentional things.

Speaker 2:

You have to be, I wouldn't say manufacturing, but there's some things intentionally. Every church ethos ought to have to allow those kind of things to manifest, right. But man, I feel like our two cents worth and we're still, we just get started, but I feel like it has been natural. I think people know that. Yeah, I think people sense that and feel it so.

Speaker 1:

So that brings up a good question. Should all churches, then, be multi-ethnic? So what does that look like? Let's say, small, predominantly white mid-America church, rural dairy farmer, winnebago County, wisconsin. What does that look like for?

Speaker 2:

them. Yeah, I would just kind of and there may be some of those listing right Like what do I do in South Dakota? Yeah, exactly, I get that and I would rephrase the question oh okay, I wouldn't ask. Should all churches be all multi-ethnic? I would ask the question just how multi-ethnic will this church be able to be?

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's a good way to phrase it.

Speaker 2:

Because that makes it about posture and not about product. Product, yeah, and so I just sense that. Right, most churches in the world are homogenous. Yeah, um, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Yeah, you know what I mean. I think you are where you are, where you serve, where you serve, and all that good stuff, yeah but I think the question, in light of so many proof texts and scriptures, should be man, how multi-ethnic should we?

Speaker 2:

be and I think every pastor, every elder team, every staff, every whoever does real well to ask hey, we're in South Dakota and there's only, you know, 1800 Native Americans in our city. Yeah, and there's only two black people, yeah.

Speaker 1:

There's 400.

Speaker 2:

Hispanics. Let's just say there's 40,000 whites. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Yeah, I think the question to ask is yeah, but if, if one of the minority came, yeah, or if they're, if you're at the native american church, yeah, and if one of our white brothers and sisters came, would that be okay? Yeah, that's good. Would we treat them right?

Speaker 2:

yeah, would our people treat them right yeah, like would that would people treat them right? Yeah, like would there need to be a discussion that would need to be had afterwards. So I think that posture and thinking that way is so essential. And here's what I want to say on a spiritual tip. I don't want to go mystical, I want to go spiritual here. Sometimes the reason why they're not coming is because you haven't asked that question. The reason why they're not coming is because you haven't asked that question.

Speaker 2:

So I want God to be able to trust Southwest to bring any soul he wants to on church on Sunday. I want who loves that soul, god, who loves that soul infinitely more than we could. I want him to be able to say oh, I can trust my child at Southwest, I can trust. So I'm going to start doing some things and I'm going to make sure she bump into so-and-so that's in the grief care unit. I'm going to make sure she bump into Bush. She's just going to hear Southwest for two weeks. I need to go to Southwest because I can trust Southwest with this soul. And that's posture and that's hard work but it's fruitful work.

Speaker 2:

And I love being at a church brother. Hard work, but it's fruitful work, and I love being at a church brother. I love being at a church where everyone feels like I can be here. I mean, I don't want to go nowhere else, I don't want to be nowhere else, I want to be here because everybody feels like I can be there.

Speaker 2:

And hear me, if you're in South Dakota, it's going to look different. Coachella Valley, trust me, it looks different. Memphis, it looks different. But posture man, can this be the place that can be as multi-ethnic as God desires her to be? There's a historical figure named Donald McGavern. This is seminary fodder. Back in the 60s he wrote a book called the Homogenous.

Speaker 1:

Unit.

Speaker 2:

Principle, hup for short. He was a missiologist and did great missiological work around the world and noticed that obviously one of the obstacles he would say to people coming to church was the obstacle of race, ethnicity, gender not gender, but culture, language, all that good stuff. So he said, hey, if you want to win more people to Jesus, take those obstacles away. And it was called the homogenization unit principle. Most megachurches in America that would have been erected in the late 70s definitely 80s, 90s, upwards of the early 2000s was because that was the church growth textbook for almost 30 years in American evangelical seminaries. And so, hear me, I think Donald McGarvin loved Jesus and is in heaven right now. But he created race differences, culture differences, language differences and kind of licensed them as obstacles to the gospel instead of compliments to the gospel Got it, and he unleashed a sea of leaders right who came into church with that thinking oh, okay, right, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And so that's kind of baked into some of our culture, some of our ethoses, all that good stuff when you think of the modern megachurch. And so my encouragement to everybody listening is that here at Southwest we don't look at it as an obstacle, we look at it as a compliment. We care about quality as much as we do quantity. Now here's the thing I can go to Dallas, texas, tomorrow. Cj Knock on wood. Okay, just talking. Here it's an illustration.

Speaker 2:

But Dallas growing like a weed. I could go to dallas and I know exactly how to have 5 000 black people at a church in less than five years and I know exactly how to have a white church 5 000 people in dallas yeah I just know how to do it, so I know if it's a black church and get a hot organist okay, I'm hot, meaning they can play well, yeah, they're good yeah uh, right, right, I'm gonna sing this soundtrack of these songs.

Speaker 2:

I'm gonna have these events, okay, I'm gonna uh wear dashiki every three months, I'm going to preach on these things and I'll I'll have 5 000 black, yeah, 5 000 white people. I know to and to hire the closest thing to Chris Tomlin I can find. I know to locate myself in this particular suburb where the new high school just got built. I know how to make sure that kids ministry is second to none and that there's big old balloons everywhere for kids. And I know to make sure that there's a great barbecue at the men's events. And I know to preach these three subjects Boom, boom, boom, over and over again. I know men's events and I know to preach these three subjects boom, boom, boom, over and over again. I know the lean conservative and I'll get that. Okay, but will I have a church? Yeah, yeah, is the question. Yeah, right, and so now those are stark contrast, right that not all of that is you know yeah.

Speaker 2:

Accurate, right, accurate, right, like. But I'm making a point. But give me 300 people in a city who are from all different spectrums, trying to flesh out the gospel missionally together, and I bet there'll be more potency and glory for jesus in that 300 than either of those 5 000 spectrums. Right, and I say the same for hispanic, latina, I say the same thing for Indian, american and so on and so forth. There's something about us coming together when we don't look alike, act alike, think alike, vote alike, but because of Jesus we become one. That is way more beautiful than 5,000 folks who do look alike, act alike, think alike, vote alike, becoming one. At the end of the day, I can produce one and at the end of the day only the other one. Only God can do, yeah, and I think that speaks to this world way more than the other version, which is why we stay at it.

Speaker 1:

So anyway, well, yeah, you got me thinking about a food metaphor. When you were saying that and I was thinking about as you were talking about it almost sounded like a like a recipe for success, as you were saying, you know you know going to Texas and building this thing yes which actually you. You're not seeing a lot of the Holy Spirit and God working in that. You're looking at your ability to create something that just you know for growth.

Speaker 1:

But I'm thinking of it like food from, like you know, just something bland, easy and you know a recipe like that, versus something more complex and maybe a little tougher to you know, but delicious Sure. And so I was like you know I love your food analogies, and so I was just thinking of that. I was like man that one just doesn't. It doesn't seem as attractive as the other, which?

Speaker 2:

may be more difficult to make and to participate in, but at the end you're like, Ooh, that's right.

Speaker 1:

Well, so is there a let's jump into this, and I don't know how far you want to go with it. But what would you say? Is there such thing as being too ethnic so as to actually create a barrier to true diversity? You know, I think so.

Speaker 2:

I think, I think, I think you know Paul said in First Corinthians nine I have become all things that by all means I might save some. Yeah, and what I see with Paul, who was never, never timid about talking about the pride for lack of a better word that he had in his Jewish traditions. But, also the willingness with which he was ready to abandon those Jewish traditions for the sake of the gospel.

Speaker 2:

I think that exposed the fact that all of us could be a little bit too overboard with our particular perspective, cultural preferences and all that kind of stuff. So I think, I think, even if it wasn't culture, I'd bring preferences on some level.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's true, I think, if I could be too preferential on some things.

Speaker 2:

I can certainly do that in the way of race and ethnicity, yeah, and I've seen churches do that. Yeah, that comes back to that manufacturing thing, right. So there can be times where I do think a church ethos for beautiful reasons, by the way can just overdo it, and so my caution against that would be man, if it ain't natural, it ain't the Holy Spirit, you know, and trust God to do it. So let me tell my story, and I know I always kind of speak about African-American, but the reason is because I'm African-American, but I copy and paste that to all of the people that make up our church.

Speaker 2:

I remember when I was thinking about candidating, it was July of 2017. They asked me to come out and really take a serious look at it. So I'd come out to Southwest to actually seriously consider. I had been here before, but I told them it wasn't interesting. Then, july, okay, well, let me take a look. Well, I'm gonna keep it real. Yeah, okay, we had four services in those days. Gosh, we have four again. Anyways, we had four services in those days saturday, three on sunday and I knew that the coachella valley had only two, was only two percent black. Yeah, which was a big issue for me because I was like I don't, I was fine with it, you know, yeah, I love white people. I love white people so much I married one.

Speaker 1:

So that ain't the issue, that ain't a problem.

Speaker 2:

But I was concerned for my kids. I wanted them to grow up around and see some African-American men and women. Well, I'm at all four services in CJ. I ain't even going to lie. I counted how many black people there were, and there were 14, which was great, by the way, 14 in all, four services, and I just remember thinking all right, god, if you want me to do it, though, I'll do it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, now I can't possibly count how many African-Americans, how many Asian-Americans, how many Lord knows how many Hispanic Latinos, how many white brothers, I can't count it anymore. But we didn't say year one. We're going to have 100 black people and 100 Indian people by year, one year one.

Speaker 1:

We're going to have a hundred black people and a hundred Indian people by year one.

Speaker 2:

And we're going to sing all Indian songs this month. We didn't do that crap. We just said we're going to make it about Jesus and love people and naturally it seems to be like that's evolving. And what I love to see Sundays ain't nothing. What I love to see is when small groups are fleshing out the gospel together and the growth that happens.

Speaker 1:

So anyways, yeah, oh man I love it, but yeah you can be too ethnic.

Speaker 2:

for sure, for sure.

Speaker 1:

So I would ask ultimately, what does true unity and diversity look like in your opinion?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think I'll see it. When I see it, and I think you and I will be like whoa have you ever seen this.

Speaker 2:

Revelation 7, again, john peeks into heaven and he saw this great multitude in heaven no man can number. The Bible says he looked and behold a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, all tribes, all people, languages. And I love that verse because it says that he could look and see that there were differences in heaven and I think that may be one of our markers and that we can look and see that all the image bears in this town are represented in this church and we say this at Southwest all the time.

Speaker 2:

We say, when we get to heaven, ain't going to be no black side, ain't going to be no white side, ain't going to be the Asian side, ain't going to be the Hispanic Latino side, although we know they'll have the best food, but we'll all be together. And, cj, you've coined a phrase that I'd like to share with the people. I love it. You say unity isn't homogeny, it's harmony.

Speaker 2:

I think that's what it looks like is when there are differences, that, and it's not a cultural melting pot. So we don't all kill our culture to make one. Melted our what you call us to the table and allow Holy Spirit to mix it all together and make this smorgasbord of worship for his name. So which is? You know, we don't know what we're doing, but that's what we're trying to get done.

Speaker 1:

But you know it's fun. I love to see, though, is that you see it at different times and it's not this continual. There's not like a perfect thought for how that's fleshed out. You see it, it ebbs and flows just as we do, and just as you see all things work. This way. And sometimes some of these other things come to the forefront and then sometimes there's some dude, and so we all. It's all give and take right.

Speaker 1:

So there's, times that my preferences or my thoughts or my musical styles, or whatever it is, isn't brought to the forefront. And then there's other times that it's celebrated a little bit further. But that's the beauty of it. That's right, because you're watching other people step forward and then we celebrate them and you're watching someone else step forward and we celebrate them and it's just a cool thing.

Speaker 2:

Amen, and in the name of jesus, for the sake of the whole. So you know, my office is senior pastor, right, so I actually have some license to be able to say let's sing these kinds of songs.

Speaker 2:

I could do that. But, man, my songs are going to fit me and I will love it. I'm not sure enough others will. So we've got to found a soundtrack that appeals to the whole not me, right? Same thing with preaching of the gospel. Same thing with you know how we dress and all those sorts of things. So everybody has to decide that, for the sake of Christ's glory, I'm going to turn the knob down on my stuff. I'm going to come to the table, I'm going to be there, I'm going to be ready to be used, but I'm going to turn it down.

Speaker 1:

So everyone you know what I mean. Like that's what God wants. I think I think heaven will be a little like that too. I think heaven will be a little like that too. I think so too, you know, yeah, oh, I love that. Um so, uh, we said, yeah, what are some, what are some practical uh steps that anyone can take to promote, you know, multi-ethnic posture in their everyday life? What are some things we can do?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we've got several things here is be read, and so by that I mean like, if you you know, uh, esau Macaulay is a Wheaton scholar who wrote um reading while black, and there's a several of the scholars that have talked about. Okay, here's hermeneutics from my cultural perspective, and the point is this when you read the Bible for what the Bible says and not for what you think, it should mean, things change and just let God's Word stand on us. So I would encourage you, be read, and I always say this this is what I say multi-ethnicity is on every other page of the Bible.

Speaker 2:

You can't get away from it. From Genesis all the way to Revelation, you see an intentionality from the heart of God to include all kinds of people in his kingdom, which I think on some level brings me to this place, as a believer, to consider how that might look in my own life and so be read At the same time, I would say, be curious.

Speaker 1:

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

Be curious about what that looks like. How could I do that? How would I pull that off and think about your rhythms, right? Like I always say, your biggest platform is your breakfast table. So, man, I want my kids, cj, to wonder who our favorite is when it comes to ethnicity. Like I just want them to be confused. I want them. I want, when you ask Randy, hey, what's mom and dad's favorite race to have over for dinner, I want them to say I want granny. So this, hey, what's mom and dad's favorite race to have over for?

Speaker 1:

dinner. I want them to say I want Granny to say this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You see what I'm saying? I don't want that question to be an obvious answer yeah, exactly Right.

Speaker 2:

So second, be willing to be uncomfortable, I think is huge. The gospel cost us our comfort and I think we find our true comfort in Christ. Christ over culture. So I think there has to be a willingness to be a little uncomfortable for the sake of the joy and peace that comes with all of us coming together. What would you add to that, bro?

Speaker 1:

Well, like you said, know what Jesus said I love that about being well-read so know what Jesus said so you can do like Jesus did you said this, you know he calls us to an other centered life.

Speaker 1:

So we can see that, like you said, on every other page of scripture, um, and then I would just say, uh, always, you know, charity, humility, grace and love, those are just, you know, those are things that we can, always we're practicing on every level, but in everything that we do, regardless of what the conversation is, those, those will carry us along and benefit us greatly yes.

Speaker 1:

And so um remembering that what unites us is always greater than what divides us in Christ, and so, but the biggest one, I think, for me that I was kind of camping on as I was going through some of this stuff is fear. Fear is a barrier to unity. And I think fear isolates, but love integrates.

Speaker 2:

So that whole.

Speaker 1:

I mean for me, those are the things I think we get a little bit nervous about. Am I going to have control and dominance, and am I going to have control and dominance and am I going to? You know what I mean? There's an eight we know this kind of feeling, and so I think that's the thing that I'll find, that I make the biggest when I make definitive, when I draw definitive lines and I do things, and I make the biggest mistakes, it's because fear is driving something, or my sense of need for control.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that's so well said. I think I think, at the end of the day, ask yourself the question to be aware of what's at stake. Yeah, if you don't allow yourself to experience some of what?

Speaker 1:

God has for you in this conversation.

Speaker 2:

Right, brother, there's so much more I see about the world that I didn't know just because I married April oh yeah, because I'm a different ethnic background than me.

Speaker 2:

There are sensibilities I have now. There are things I used to have that was bad stuff. That's gone now, just because I got in a deep relationship with someone who didn't come up like me looks like me. My life is enriched just because of you and I are friends. That's what I was going to say to you and what I've seen about the world and about your perspective and your courage bringing that to our conversations has been so sweet for me. Being at church, I've lived in several places, but I've never been around as many Hispanic and Latino brothers as I get. To be in the Coachella Valley and seeing the honor that they have for the family and sanctity of tradition and values oh, it's blessing me Right. And so I would say, ask yourself what's at stake if this doesn't happen, and I'm telling you I'm a better person because of different people that God has brought to my life.

Speaker 1:

I would agree. I would tell our listeners, like I can tell you from my own personal experience, that you'd be missing out on a fullness and expression of what God has for us here and now. There's just in our relationship and just the things that you've been so kind to sit with me in and to just navigate and like I just I'm. I'm better because of it and my life is richer because of it and I have a different perspective for God's call on my life to reach people for the gospel because of our friendship and relationship.

Speaker 2:

Same here, same here, beautiful thing. Amen, amen, praise Jesus.

Speaker 1:

Well, as always, we hope our conversations are engaging, but we want to provide people with helpful resources as well. What are some things we want to point people to that they might find helpful?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. So you can check out our website, look at some of our position papers on the image of God and just that multi-ethnic conversation. We think the other six days podcast is a really good. We've talked about this several times so we're going to put those in the show notes. Great book I read years ago Tony Evans Oneness Embraced is a great reader.

Speaker 2:

And then Center Church by Tim Keller. My buddy, albert Tate, wrote a book called how we Love Matters. That's been good Grace to Overcome is a new book that my buddy Brian LaRitz has written 31 Devotions on God's Work Through Black History. Brian's a black history expert For several years.

Speaker 2:

In February, for Black History Month, he would just post a story about black history, random black history that nobody knows bringing that to bear, ie alarm systems. As we know. It was invented by a single woman, I think, in Baltimore, maryland, got tired of getting broken into so I had a little knowledge about electricity and started dabbling and dabbling and made us an alarm system. It's based on you know, so things like that, right, bringing that to bear, but through scripture, right. And so it's just. Everyone's excited about this book. I bought it for, I know, for all our pastors here and maybe for the whole staff. I don't know what Natalie did, but anyways, yeah, it's an awesome, awesome thing that we're excited about. Then we're going to put in the show notes some messages that we preached here on race and the gospel and all that good stuff.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah, lots of good stuff for everybody out there. So, yeah, and then we'll include a few more things in there too. I took some notes. But, as always too, any questions, comments and feedback. Make sure you leave a comment on YouTube or, if you're just listening, you can email us. At the other six days that's the number six at southwestchurchcom we want to hear what you guys have to say. If you guys have questions or you have thoughts, we'd love to come alongside you and be able to answer, even on the side. And if you're just like, hey, I've been wrestling with this and I would love to know a little bit more about it and maybe we can help in some way or point you in the right direction, absolutely Holla at us, y'all, holla at us.

Speaker 2:

So any last comments or thoughts before we wrap this up. Ricky, how about this Kumbaya? No, no, nothing else to add. That was so good.

Speaker 1:

I thought you were going to start singing, I believe. Well, there you have it, guys. Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Other Six Days podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe, follow, share and like, spread the word and, as always, take what you've heard and turn it into something you can do to further the gospel in the world around you. Until next time, peace, peace.