The Other 6 Days

Joyful Generosity | The Other 6 Days | Episode 55

• Southwest Church • Season 3 • Episode 55

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What if generosity wasn’t just a discipline—but a delight? In this episode, Pastor David Bell joins us to share how living generously can change your life, your mindset, and your impact. Whether you're skeptical or sold-out, there's something here for you.

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Speaker 1:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Other Six Days podcast, where we chat about life outside of Sundays and what it means to live from our gatherings, and not just for them. I'm your host, cj McFadden, and on this episode we're talking about one of the most freeing, powerful and surprisingly joyful aspects of following Jesus generosity. Joining us is our very own pastor of operations at Southwest Church, david Bell. Today, he has a background in both business and ministry and David brings a thoughtful, practical and spiritual lens to this conversation. Welcome, david.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, it's good being here.

Speaker 1:

Yep, super excited, so always on our podcast. Well, usually we start off with a quick game, and I want to call this one Wisdom in Windfalls. Are you ready?

Speaker 2:

I'm ready. I'm ready.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to toss out some scenarios and then you tell us Would you save it, spend it, share it or do something else with it? All right, Okay, All right, I'm going to start easy. Yeah, yeah yeah, you get a $25 Starbucks gift card at work from your boss. Goes to my wife.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh, dude you answered.

Speaker 1:

That is the correct answer.

Speaker 2:

down, uh, you find a hundred dollars in an old jacket pocket that you just bought at the southwest thrift store I was joking earlier with the crew that I would put it all on black, but what you should actually do is is high integrity, don't gamble.

Speaker 1:

You should probably bring it back to the thrift store and and see what they want to do. Okay, see what they want to do. Well, we got another answer just in testing that particular one.

Speaker 2:

But was, was it give it to my wife?

Speaker 1:

Just praise the Lord.

Speaker 2:

Brittany told us praise the Lord for that one.

Speaker 1:

I like that. Take it back inside. That feels good. You sold something on Craigslist or Facebook marketplace and made a $300 profit on it, so this is a funny one.

Speaker 2:

I just sold something on.

Speaker 1:

OfferUp. Of course you did.

Speaker 2:

I sold a motorcycle on OfferUp and you know what I did? What I gave it to my wife, legitimately. The money went to my wife. She needed it. This time I feel bad. It's a longer story for every day. I feel bad. She didn't need the money. Our money is our money. But there's something that we got going on. She's trying to get our dog back, yeah, and I said, hey, well, if we're going to get our dog back, we need to get a dog run. And so I sold my motorcycle so she could use the money to make our side darted a dog run. And so I did give it to my wife. But what you should actually do, what you should actually do, cj, depends on your situation. Right, like, if you have debt, put it to debt. Right, like, pay down your debt. Debt is death, like it is going to be the end of you. If you don't have debt, man, put it into your savings, build your savings, think about being generous to whatever charitable contribution you want to make to a missionary or whatever.

Speaker 1:

But, like, it depends on your situation a little bit Like seriously, I like that Situational. That's a lot of wisdom there, though, but I still think you can never go wrong with the answer being give it to your wife. Give it to your wife, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah Okay.

Speaker 2:

She's the happiest she's ever been, because I gave it to my wife.

Speaker 1:

Well, we still got a few more. You find a large sum of cash in a wallet with no ID in the gutter, a thousand plus.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I haven't done that, but I have found a lot of cash one time and I brought it to the police department. Is what I did. Because I just like thought about myself and I'm like dude if I lost my wallet and I don't keep cash on me almost ever which my dad would be bummed about, but. I lost my wallet. No, I didn't lose my um wallet. I thought about if I lost my wallet yeah like what I like, I would want to find it yeah I'd be pretty bummed.

Speaker 2:

And so, uh, I found a wallet one time and I brought it to the police department and the person found found it. They called the police department. I don't know why. I don't know if, like, that's something you learn as a little kid in certain areas but like they call the police department, the police department had their wallet, so I don't know what you would do in like a real world situation yeah I think it's situational again, like I think what most people would do would just pocket it, but the the common meme going around is uh, praise the lord it was.

Speaker 2:

uh. Yeah, it was the answer to prayer. It was his provision.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I do like that, though that's could you imagine if you went to the police department and they had your cash filled? Actually, I've had people return my wallet before and it's such a huge blessing when they give it back to you and with everything intact.

Speaker 2:

Think about when you lose your wallet or your cell phone or your car keys, like your heart immediately goes into the lowest part of your stomach and you can't breathe anymore because it like it's like everything you can't do anything today without your wallet, like yeah, I guess there's Apple pay, yeah, so you could do some stuff.

Speaker 1:

Well, especially though it's like real IDs and stuff now and all that, I mean you're like yeah.

Speaker 2:

I don't even know if you can get another real ID if you don't have the remains of your wallet. Like they check everything at the DMV to get one of those things, All right.

Speaker 1:

Turn the wallet in. You know, turn the wallet ID or not. I like that, Okay. Um, let's see. Oh, you went a thousand dollars in a fantasy football league.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's a good one. It's fantasy football man, it first of all, you never win fantasy football, so, like, if you're winning a thousand bucks, come hang out with me. I got some other things that I need. Yeah, I'm going to start giving you my money because, like, you're probably going to multiply it by 10. But, yeah, I think it's situational, honestly, like things like that, if you're not counting on like, you shouldn't be counting on that money.

Speaker 2:

First of all, like, I'm not a big advocate of like, hey, go gamble away things if you don't have right Like, and so I think, if you're winning that money, you have money to gamble with. You're just playing around, right, you're having fun with your friends. Like it would be cool and we'll probably talk about this later a little bit but, like, I think it's super cool when, like, a group of people have like a communal purpose, like think about your, your small group, and like being able to go support something together. I think it's super cool, like, and so, thinking about, like a fantasy football league, like you guys all have like a common thing, how cool it'd be to like invest that back into like a local youth football program or something like that, where you can like experience, that like good feeling of like man, I get to go help people.

Speaker 1:

I think that'd be fun. That's really wise.

Speaker 2:

Or I'd put it in my savings account High yield savings account. Throw it there, let it earn interest.

Speaker 1:

Again situational, Situational Situational Lifetime supply of Chick-fil-A.

Speaker 2:

Oh man, this is a hot take. I think that Chick-fil-A is like the third best chicken sandwich.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that is a hot take here.

Speaker 2:

I would eat it. Yeah, Still top three, Like they're doing good. But I would eat it. But I would probably like want to give as much of it away as possible because, like I like well, I can't eat that much Chick-fil-A and I, like would rather eat McDonald's chicken sandwich because it's the number one restaurant in America. For a reason I forgot, you're a McDonald's guy. I'm a huge McDonald's guy.

Speaker 1:

Oh man, I number one restaurant in America. For a reason I forgot.

Speaker 2:

You're a McDonald's guy. I'm a huge McDonald's guy.

Speaker 1:

Oh man, I never would have thought we would hear that on this podcast.

Speaker 2:

No, but it is the Lord's chicken, so I don't care what Ricky says Pastor Ricky has led you guys astray because McDonald's is the Lord's chicken.

Speaker 1:

Well, those are fighting words.

Speaker 2:

I think I will stand on that. He knows that too.

Speaker 1:

We probably should move along on that. So I like this one Relatives send you a $500 birthday check for your daughter's college fund.

Speaker 2:

Oh man you got to open up a 529. You got to open up. If you ain't taking the tax advantage of a 529 for your kids, start it. I mean literally that's exactly what you should do. Open up a 529 for your kids, start it. I mean literally that's exactly what you should do. Open up a 529 account, like get your kids into investment for educational purposes. Cause, like, what's the number one complaint every parent has when their kid turns 18 and graduates high school? I can't afford college.

Speaker 2:

Right. And so most people take, like, an economic route and they'll go to a junior college or a community college, depending on what area you live in, but like, like or they just take on crippling debt. Yeah, and like, if man, if parents just like started investing birthday money. We went to a birthday party two weeks, three weeks ago now Birthday party for a two year old, my daughter's almost two, our friends had had a two year old. They said don't bring a birthday present, only bring money, because we're going to put it into his 529 account. So imagine if you did that. You don't even have to invest. You ask your friends and family to just bring their 20 bucks to the birthday party, which they would have spent on a gift anyways.

Speaker 2:

And then you invest what will end up being 100, 200, 300, 400, 500 bucks every birthday party over the course of 18 years. Multiplying, yeah, and like, then you get the compounding interest on that and like I mean, these people are thinking way smarter than me.

Speaker 1:

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2:

I would probably put it in my bank account is what I would do and just like be like oh thanks, yeah, she's really gonna love that money that I'm gonna spend on McDonald's.

Speaker 1:

I was waiting for just a funny. Mcdonald's answer, but that was very wise and practical.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to go spend money at McDonald's and give my free Chick-fil-A away.

Speaker 1:

I love that, well, okay. So what about if you're gifted a car, but one that you and Audrey probably wouldn't drive? You going to donate that or share it? I probably am going to donate it, yeah. Right, Like cause I don't or sell it and sell it on, sell it on, offer up and give the money to my wife so that I so that she can get her dog back.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there you go. That's probably what I'm going to do. I'm going to sell it on offer up and give the money to my wife for her dog. Okay, good answer, all right, still wise, still wise. I love that. Uh, last one, of course, and we have to have this one. What, uh, what could you, should you or would you do if you won the lotto? Ooh, like full financial, like I got a huge lottery.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so I um, we don't. We don't carry much debt. We have a car payment right and uh, and our mortgage. That's the only debt that my family carries. And so I pay my family's debt off first, right Like pay off the house, pay off the car, pay off any debt. I then invest in a 529 for Gracie's college and make sure she can go to college. I'd probably put money, I'd probably pay my parents' house off, my sister's house off and help, like my immediate family, family, and get everyone that I can immediately debt-free. And then I would probably look at being ultra-generous to what's close to my heart, which is the church and spreading the gospel, and so I would think a lot about that.

Speaker 2:

But the very first thing, CJ. So this is a funny statistic. Did you know that most people that win the lottery end up bankrupt?

Speaker 1:

within five years or something. It's like crazy fast. I'd probably talk to a tax advisor an investment advisor before I just go spend $3 million paying off everyone's debt.

Speaker 2:

That's probably why these people are bankrupt in five years is because they were all lofty and super generous.

Speaker 1:

You're kind and frivolous or just kind and broke. Yeah, either way, you end up in the same place. So scratch that.

Speaker 2:

I would. I would For sure talk to an advisor.

Speaker 1:

But I'd want to be generous, to like the people I could be.

Speaker 2:

And then like impact yeah, the thing that's super close to my heart, and like man, I think that a huge amount of money, like could you imagine what like $100 million does for the sake of the gospel around the world?

Speaker 1:

Like it's a lot of money, like I don't know man. You could do a lot of money Like I don't know man you could do a lot of stuff, a lot of free chick.

Speaker 2:

And if I had free Chick-fil-A. I don't even have to pay for food anymore. Dude, my budget would be so tight, It'd be easy.

Speaker 1:

You'd still be buying McDonald's. It doesn't have to be crushing.

Speaker 2:

And if they keep increasing their prices. They're going to drop on my list. Oh yeah, that's rough. That's a podcast for another day. Fast food prices in America.

Speaker 1:

We'll circle back around on that or it'll come back around later in the podcast. So, david, tell us a little bit about your world, your family, your hobbies. You know the path that led you to your current role here at Southwest.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. So my family? So I'm married to Audrey, we've been married, coming on, six years and we just had our first child, our daughter, um, who's about to be two, and that's been awesome. We're hoping to have more kids, um, so we'll see what the Lord has for us. But, um, the journey to get like into offer church operations and like the business of church has been a unique one.

Speaker 2:

I started as a children's pastor and, uh, and really realized, like man, and really realized like man, I don't even know what it means to be a pastor, like I have no clue what that means. And so, through a discipleship relationship, just realized like, hey, it'd be really cool to sit on a team where I can just kind of be a fly on the wall at a pastoral table and learn how pastors pastor, how they think about moving the gospel forward in their local community, how they think about loving people and caring about people. And that's what led me to Southwest the first time. So I started at Southwest as an admin. I was here as an executive assistant, I was sitting on, I assisted an executive pastor, sitting on the leadership team and just a fly on the wall. I made no decisions. But I got to learn so much and, cj, you were at the table in those days where I got to just sit there and like I was my mind couldn't fathom the way that that table of pastors even thought it was. It was really like a a huge growing period for me.

Speaker 2:

And shortly after that, uh, uh, our HR director here, uh, stepped off. And I don't I have no, I had no background in HR and but I but I had just finished my master's degree, which is in executive leadership, which is at the school I was at. It was like kind of like an MBA, but only from a leadership perspective. So where an MBA takes like more of a tactical approach, like you're going to learn how to do all of these different components of business, finance, facilities management, um, supply chain management, stuff, like that this took it all from. Like you're going to lead those teams.

Speaker 2:

And so I finished that master's degree and I was in a a a conversation with pastor Ricky down the hallway and he's like, hey, so, um, you do business, you're going to do HR. And I was like, dude, I don't know if I can do that. And he's like, oh, it's interim, it's no big deal Like, and I was like I think it's a big deal. California labor law is like super gnarly and so, um, I didn't know what to do and, uh, total imposter syndrome for me, like I should not have been in that role. It was like wild that I was in that, especially at this church. Like man, we were moving and grooving and it was cool. Staff was big, it was a cool thing, cool opportunity for a young guy. And that exposed me to HR.

Speaker 2:

I did that and that led to a connection with a really, really pivotal friendship in in my life with a guy named Steven Bush. He's the I think his title is the chief vision officer, but the CEO. He founded Kingdom One, yeah, an organization that's focused on helping in the shared services space. So shared services for us is like marketing and communications, it facilities, finance HR, all those spaces that churches have a hard time with. And he founded this company that got to consult churches and so he came in solely to like fix a problem I thought I found, and just cause I was so new to HR that it was like I don't know what I'm doing.

Speaker 2:

And so yeah so we brought in Steven and that led to him offering me a job to be him and me like launching Kingdom One. So there was a period where we were consulting churches and that's really where I got my exposure to like church ops is. He gave me a front row seat to go and meet with churches as their consultant and what they didn't know was that he was behind the scenes helping lead me and understanding how I can impact that church. So I would be in the conversation they think I'm their support person and I am largely but I would take the info, go back to him and he would coach me on like hey, you got to be thinking about this, this is what they're asking about. These are the laws that I associate with that. And I worked with him for a few years.

Speaker 2:

At that time I went and became a youth pastor simultaneously and had left Southwest Church simultaneously and had left Southwest Church and Ricky gave me a call back and there was some transition happening here and the ops pastor Natalie, who was on the podcast a few weeks ago or a month ago she moved up to the executive pastor role and so they're like man, we should call David and get him back in.

Speaker 2:

So that brought me full circle back to kind of the world of operations, which is still like I'm still learning so much in right, and I think it's like one of those weird things in a church, like the nonprofit space. There's not a lot of people out there who are like coaching and developing and like and giving educational resources in that space and so relying on organizations like Kingdom One is like hyper important for me because I'm like man, I have this relationship where I can learn how things apply to churches and then how we can best structure our church to kind of move forward. And so it's super fun. Like in my role here I get to do a lot of fun stuff where I get to oversee all of the day-to-day to help like all of our ministry teams really like be able to focus on moving the vision forward, moving the needle on the vision and just kind of taking care of that and what is that?

Speaker 1:

So what does an operation pastor do? Like what is what does that even mean, then? Like what does that entail?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so at our church the operations pastor is really similar to like a uh in the marketplace, to be like a COO, Um. I oversee the finance facilities, IT, HR, and then I oversee any of like the kind of revenue earning businesses that the church launches as ministry.

Speaker 1:

So think like preschool counseling center.

Speaker 2:

Those are recent Make Jesus Famous initiatives. The Thrift Store. We just launched Immigrant Hope. That helps people navigate the legal process for immigration and so I oversee kind of all the business components. Another way to think of it is like I work on the systems and processes to help our day-to-day operations. So, depending on like what your exposure to like business is, thinking about it as systems processes day-to-day might make the most sense or thinking about as like people management yeah, might make the most sense.

Speaker 1:

But and I'd say too, like a lot of it, and for all you lay people out there, it's all. Basically he oversees, like you know, obviously, facilities, hr finance, it all, the, all the parts of the church body that go unseen on a day-to-day.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, if you know, if you know what my job is, I probably failed.

Speaker 1:

Probably fail, because it's the stuff behind the scenes, for sure, but his, his passion, his gifting. It fuels our mission and maintains our organization's integrity, with both the individuals which is cool the community at a whole and obviously with the you know it's God's money that we're overseeing, but also the IRS keeping us in compliance, so keeping us in compliance.

Speaker 2:

So I think that's important dude, yeah, and that's a scary thing. Like, yeah, uh, laws aren't a joke. Yeah, like, and so you don't want to mess around on um, so I did my best. It's funny I joke with my buddy who's also in operations and, uh, we talk about, like, how our kind of team is known as, like, the no faith department, because usually what you hear from us is like oh, but the regulations say this. Like, we really try to figure out, like, how do we like stay compliant so that we can make ministry happen for hundreds of years and not just for a short period of time? We're like, oh man, we're going to hit the speed bump because we just didn't think about that, you know. And so, like, we really think about ourselves as like, how do we protect our church and our people so that we can accomplish God's vision?

Speaker 1:

for this valley.

Speaker 2:

And like that's kind of how we would think about it on, you know, like internal space.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Stewardship, longevity, man, that's so good. I love that. Well, let's lay a foundation for our conversation today. When we say we're talking about generosity, and when we say generosity, what exactly do we mean? Like? What are we talking about? We say generosity? What exactly do we mean Like?

Speaker 2:

what are we talking about? Yeah, so that's a cool, cool question. So in churches, you're gonna hear about generosity all the time. It's kind of like discipleship, so like you're gonna hear that word and it's gonna be like, oh yeah, they talk about that. Yeah, and it's always typically the first thing that you think about, especially if, like you're in a Western civilization, like you're going to think money, and that's the number one thing that you're talking about when you're talking about generosity, and largely, it's true, um, but like you can be generous with your time, you can be generous with your gifts, you can be generous with money, for sure, you can be generous with a lot of avenues, and so, um, when we talk about generosity, we're talking about your whole life, like how can you be generous with all of you and not just this fraction of you?

Speaker 1:

that like.

Speaker 2:

I think a lot of people get hung up on right Cause money is like a big identifier, like I see my worth by what is my net worth instead of by what Christ calls me, and as a son or as a daughter, right Like. And so when we talk about generosity, we talk about the whole person, right Like what are we doing with our time, talent, treasure and and to codify in like a real?

Speaker 1:

easy way. Yeah, and why are you? Uh, why do you love the word generosity so much over Like cause? You know we hear things like donation, charity, stewardship, philanthropy, tithing, giving all this stuff.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, generosity to me, um it, it just reflects Christ's generosity. So, like, like, when you become a Christian, your identity is now Christ, right, it's. It's not in who you, who you think you are, it's not in what you do or what you say, it's in Christ. And so generosity, like Christ was the most generous he gave himself for us as an act of generosity, and so it's this whole life posture, right, like, so I like using the word generosity because it's it's way more like. I want to be known as a generous Christian. I don't want people to look at me and be like, oh man, that guy's a super frugal Christian. Like, that's, that's not what Christ has called me to Like.

Speaker 2:

Acts 2, church calls us to this man. They shared everything that they had in common, right, and so, like, like, we don't see that a lot anymore, though we see we share a portion of what we have in common, but not everything. And so, when we think about generosity, we really like have this evaluative posture of, like, joy and community and unity and mission and focus that extends past just what's in my wallet. It extends to, like how am I prioritizing my relationships? How am I prioritizing my time with my family? How am I prioritizing what the Lord has gifted me in my education, my intelligence?

Speaker 2:

Like, how am I being generous with all aspects of who God created me to be.

Speaker 1:

That's so good, I love it. You said it. But I just kind of doubling down on this whole life orientation towards a life of generosity, Like because when we compartmentalize, we actually minimize it when we compartmentalize it to just money. Yeah, Because like then you know Jesus was generous in everything.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And so you know, and at a sacrificial level, and so that goes way further than just you know, just a conversation.

Speaker 2:

It goes so much further right. And so, like you look at, yeah, I love that the church is using generosity as a language now instead of tithing yeah, because like tithing becomes so legalistic for people. Yeah, and then, like I love taking a step away from like philanthropy or like anything related to like just individual moments, yeah, of a lifestyle of generosity.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah individual moments of a lifestyle of generosity. Because I really do believe, like Old Testament Israelites and New Testament Gentiles and Christians right, Like you're seeing this, like God constantly wanted all of them. He didn't just want a portion of them. And you see him like continuously hit on that idea. Right, yeah, you know New Testament. He goes to the rich man and says what does it take to follow you? He says sell everything. Yeah, Right, Like well, that's wild. And so I think a lot of us sitting there are like, oh my goodness, like he wants all of me, and so if I have a portion of me that I'm not willing to submit to Christ, he doesn't have all of me.

Speaker 2:

And so if I have a portion of me that I'm not willing to submit to Christ, he doesn't have all of me, and so it's this self, like we do this at communion all the time, where you kind of just like hey, take a moment to examine your heart and before you partake in the bread and blood right and just ask the Lord to see. Like hey, search the unsearchable parts right, like I don't know what I don't know. And so when you talk about generosity, you talk about this whole life stewardship. I really like love when people orient themselves back to this. Like man, am I fully submitted to Christ? In all areas of my life.

Speaker 1:

That's so good man. I love that. Wow, that was really really helpful, I think. So let's talk about why generosity is not only biblical but beneficial to our spiritualized mental health and global impact. So you've got a bunch of thoughts and ideas on all this, so I don't know, Just touch on that a little bit.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so there's this study that's been going on in psychology and you can do a bunch of research on it, but it kind of all focuses on what they're calling the warm glow effect, and so it's this idea that when you give something away, you feel good inside.

Speaker 2:

Now there's some caveats to that. If you give involuntarily or out of manipulation or guilt, you might not experience the warm glow effect. And so this is a super interesting thing in churches is a lot of Christians give out of guilt and manipulation. They don't give voluntarily, they give out of expectation or out of compliance with what they're supposed to do, but it's not this like cheerful giving that we see in second Corinthians. And so the warm glow effect is super fascinating because it's like been proven that it reduces stress, it increases feel good hormones like oxytocin that release in your body when you do something and you see the joy that they experience. I think the easiest thing for us to like kind of anchor into is you have kids when you give them something that they've been asking for over and, over and over again and then you kind of surprise them with it, like, and you see them just light up with like this exuberant, overwhelming joy, like, like some kids will get tearful have you seen those videos of like?

Speaker 2:

and yeah, they're crying Like what that does in your spirit is the warm glow effect, like you sit there and you're like that amount of joy to $20. Like it cost me almost nothing just doing it Right. Like so I had to sacrifice something, and my heart was to bring them joy Right Like, and so then you get to experience the joy that they're experiencing. It's called the warm glow effect which is super cool.

Speaker 2:

But then the second side of that is in America. Um, I don't think Christians intentional, I don't think leadership in Christianity in America over the last couple hundred years intentionally went this direction. But like you go back into like the early 1800s, you start looking at tent revivalism. You start looking at these itinerant speakers who are going around and evangelists that are going around and sharing the gospel and doing what the Lord had called them to do. It costs money and at a certain point in time they realize that if they share it from like an emotional perspective, that they would get more money.

Speaker 2:

And so we see this over and over again, like this idea of manipulation happening in church and some pastors have built their ministry on it and it's really really unfortunate and fully heretical. And then some pastors accidentally fell into it, like I genuinely believe their heart was right and they just maybe said something wrong and it and it created this manipulative kind of environment. But then you you couple that with consumerism, that with consumerism, materialism, individualism in America and you miss out on what the posture of sharing all things that we have in common are. And so it's this really fascinating thing in America you have like a cultural kind of Christian thing happening with like manipulation and guilt feelings. So like when the offering bucket passes your lap, you usually don't light up with joy. You usually sit there and be like oh they're asking me for more money.

Speaker 2:

This like I feel like I'm being stood up you know, like this isn't a good feeling. And then you couple that with like I want more. So I want to give away less right Like, which is an American cultural kind of thing that's going on.

Speaker 2:

And so it's really, really interesting to see, like, how that has played out in Christian circles, where now church leaders are having to fight against that cultural kind of pushback on being generous to others. And you see this all the time like man if you're every time there's an oil spill this is like a non-Christian example.

Speaker 2:

Every time there's an oil spill, it is so crazy how fast these companies to raise money to support the wildlife in that region, right Like all the wildlife there. They need millions of dollars to now clean the bay or to clean the ocean or to protect the wildlife, and you get the Don Dish soap commercials and whatever. You know how to clean a duck now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you clean a little bird and it's soft on and then, they sell all these products, right Like, but they raised money because they had a genuine connection to the problem. Yeah, right Like. I see that there is a clear goal, there's a mission. We're going to clean up the environment and I'm happy to give to that. Now, if the church was able to just restore that clear mission, yeah, and that clear goal, yeah, and that clear biblical principle of generosity or tithing or discipline in being whole life generous people, how much would we just give away? Problem solved.

Speaker 2:

Because like we're like man, I want to clean the duck in the bay because I believe that the gospel right Like and then you start tying it together, you're like gosh, like we could fight against the ideas of loss aversion, which, for those of you who don't know what loss aversion? Is it's loss aversion. Is this idea that it the feeling that you get gaining money, yeah Is not as good as the feeling that you have giving away money, like get money being taken away from you is bad, Right Like so another way of saying yeah.

Speaker 2:

Another way of saying that is like you don't feel as good about getting a hundred bucks as you feel bad about someone taking a hundred bucks right. And then so like you're fighting against that in the American culture because we innately hate when money is taken from us.

Speaker 2:

I don't want to see my bank account decrease. I don't want to see my retirement investments decrease, right, like I want to see my bank account decrease. I don't want to see my retirement investments decrease, right Like I don't want to see my pay decrease. I want more, more, more, more more. But then you couple that in America we have this mindset called a scarcity mindset, which is super, super. It's super fascinating because, like the scarcity mindset says that I'm never going to have enough. So if I give away a little bit of money, what if my car breaks down? Then what do I do? And almost always you have enough. Now there's situations, right, that's a generalized statement.

Speaker 2:

There's a lot of people that are living paycheck to paycheck and they just genuinely don't have enough and that's why they have that scarcity mindset. But this has come from like our grandparents, right, that are coming out of World War II and could not get rid of anything. So like my parents don't get rid of stuff. They just don't get rid of stuff because their parents didn't. So they learned that my family, we get rid of everything. Because I grew up with parents who don't get rid of stuff. Yeah Right. And so like it's funny how culture shapes us and like you're just, we're just constantly fighting against that there's so many avenues that even in just what you mentioned with you know, church abuses intentional, unintentional loss aversion, scarcity mindset.

Speaker 1:

Like you can see, there's so many front layers pushing against the idea of even having a conversation about money right, or to even start it and have a healthy one. You got to sort through all of those feelings, right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and like the willingness to have the conversation isn't typically there. So like most people are going to hear that we're going to talk about money and then turn it off. And like at a church, you know the amount of pastors that I talk to that hate giving the money series, because people immediately just check out Like you want my money. Like imagine if we made talking about generosity as common as we talked about stories of salvation. Like it would just be common practice, right. Like it'd be a discipline that we see right. Like, but money is one of those things that's secret. Like you're probably not going to tell me on air how much you tithe, right, but you will tell me if you pray regularly you will tell me if you have a devotional life, or if you go to church regularly.

Speaker 2:

And it's this hidden discipline of Christianity that's super, super interesting and I'm not fighting to make it public but, like I'm fighting to make the conversation more commonplace, because if we don't, we'll never untangle the knot of scarcity and loss aversion and cultural ideologies that we've inherited that make it hard, well, and then move people to where we're going to go in this conversation, is finding that the joy that's found in generosity?

Speaker 1:

Because if you don't step into generosity, you don't know the joy that can be found there. I totally agree with you. So I've talked about this before with some of my discipleship guys and kind of pontificated on it. But two of the things I think that we truly the hardest things to talk about is sex and money.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure, and it's because they're so personal, for sure, and because like most people just surrender to God's authority because they're too deeply personal and intimate, yeah and so, and they have great hold on our lives, no doubt. So those are the two.

Speaker 1:

I will let you know about every other area of my life, I'm just not going to talk to you about these two private areas and so I think that when those have a hold on us, god again doesn't have every area of our life, and so those are two that I spend a lot more time talking about, and if you notice, they're actually a large area that most I mean the guys I hang out with, struggle with.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so yeah, it's interesting Like everyone struggles with right, like are these two areas. I was talking with our counseling director, michelle and like what's fascinating when you're talking she's she's talking from a place of of psychological research, right and education and decades of experience, and she was saying, like one of the number one symptoms of a marriage having struggles is finance right, Like, and it's not the reason typically it's a symptom of it, and so if you see bad financial health, you typically know marital problems are on the are coming soon, yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know and like, but then like I mean we could go on and on about this, yeah, cj, with with the sex conversation of like how damaging purity culture was because of a failure to talk about it in a healthy way. Yeah, and like man, if, if, like youth pastors of the early 2000s could go back now, I think that they would talk about it differently, and I don't think that it was intentionally bad.

Speaker 1:

No, I was going to say great intention, poor execution, yeah, and like, and because we didn't have like. Flesh out more common, make more commonplace the conversations about that I think we could have gotten a better conclusion. Yeah, for sure, rather than just wholesale solutions that didn't work, yeah, and.

Speaker 2:

I'll tell you this like, personally, I hated being generous.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I didn't even like tithe it. Yeah, that's pretty good story, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Like I left a church when I first became a Christian in college.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I left a church during the giving moment because I thought that they were just all about money, money yeah church during the giving moment because I thought that they were just all about money and I didn't even let the church disciple me in that. It was when I finally realized like I need to be discipled. I had a mentor who just challenged me to give and that's really where I started the discipline of tithing. But I never started a whole life generosity until like really recently and like the last like 18 months I've been like really hyper-focused on it and my wife has challenged me more than anyone in this because she wants to give everything away Like she's gotten it.

Speaker 1:

I don't know what. I don't know where she learned this but she just gets it.

Speaker 2:

And and it's so cool to see like I'm like the amount of times I've said no and like I look back and I'm like gosh. If I just had the faithfulness of my wife to know that the Lord is who gave it to me first. Yeah, and he's going to continue providing as long as I'm stewarding healthily Right Like and man. How many opportunities I missed out on gospel impact. And like I'll share an embarrassing story about me. I literally so we work in a church, right, so we hear asks to us personally about fundraising from whether you know a missionary that's going to go overseas and like hey, CJ, can you support me?

Speaker 2:

You know, or like you're going to support the local, like FCA or young adult or I mean young life You're going to. You're just going to get asked all the time when you were, especially when you work in a church, because people know that you're about the mission and vision, right Like, and I got so tired of that, yeah, that like when we had good friends going on a mission strip, I literally wouldn't even hear them. I just told them oh yeah, we're not gonna financially support, we'll just pray for you.

Speaker 2:

I didn't even hear their story Like, and it was crazy man and I just realized I was so convicted because, like the Lord was like really moving my heart in this idea of joyful generosity, and I and I look back and I'm like, dude, I didn't even, I didn't even ask the question. Yeah, like I'm the, I am the problem, you know like, and it's just crazy.

Speaker 1:

It's funny because there is these aren't moments. You know that this is a. This is a process of constantly submitting this to. God, so that you can speak into those areas Because, like, if it was just like we got it, you know. But this will probably be a work in your life forever, for a long time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And also, too, it's interesting to see that like it's true, that like a lot of our passion comes from areas of previous pain.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so like something that you're like, you know, like maybe upset you or frustrated you.

Speaker 1:

I find that in my own life, in the areas that I'm like, hey, actually I'm very passionate about that because it had such an impact on me, and so I love that. I love your wrestling with it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's just cool what the Lord started doing because like I wasn't doing it and then like I you know, in my role I'm like one of the three people that get to see every tithe dollar that comes into the church and like I get to steward that nobody else sees that Like, and I just realized like I started getting bitter when people weren't recurring and I'm like man the Lord did something so great in your life once like what happened.

Speaker 1:

Like why'd that stop and?

Speaker 2:

then I looked at my own life and I'm like wait, like I wasn't generous enough in certain situations Like why, like and just doing all the research of like trying to figure out like where is that, like stronghold in my heart and like how do I start addressing this? And I'm a super practical person, so like absolutely go to the Lord in prayer, but like then just figure out like wait, what's holding me back, you know, and to experience that.

Speaker 1:

Well, and again you have to do that for yourself, Like if you're going to disciple others in that area. And so well, I, I want to ask you to so, david.

Speaker 2:

Let's say, someone wants to grow in generosity but doesn't even know where to begin or they're, you know, or they're not in a season to be able to do it. Let's talk about that kind of stuff. Sure, yeah, I mean, I think it all starts with, like every local church is going to have some sort of like financial peace university or some sort of class on, like basic financial management. I think everyone should get some sort of financial literacy to start, right, like, make sure that you're squared away on the things that are your responsibility. So, like 1 Timothy 5 says not to neglect your responsibilities, right, so Paul says this in Corinthians, where I want you to give out of your abundance, not out of your need. And so, like, square away your home first, right, like, and then start engaging in like okay, what does it look like to begin the journey?

Speaker 2:

I think the tithe is a really good aspect to look at as like a reference point. Like here's a 10% line, like I might not hit that today and there's grace in that, but like it's a great reference to say, like okay, I'm being consistent in a thing that's going to be hard, right, like, but yeah, really focusing on like those like kind of mechanical things that are like all right, I can go home and I can talk to my wife about, like, what does it look like to square away our resources and do we have extra? Like, can I start giving something?

Speaker 1:

You know, start somewhere.

Speaker 2:

And even if it's like not to the church I mean, I might get in trouble for this but like, like, if you want to, if you want to establish a generous heart, like focus on the thing that you're most passionate about, because it's easiest to give to that Right. So, like I'm fully an advocate, like, obviously, give to the church, like the church is the vehicle that the Lord has called to, like spread the gospel. But, like, you might have church hurt that doesn't allow you to give to the church. But you can still live a generous lifestyle.

Speaker 2:

And if you don't have the financial means, a great place to start is to look at your time investment. Like, where am I spending my time? And when am I spending my time? Yeah, and do I have margin to serve the Lord? Yep, or to volunteer at a local, you know, baseball practice or my kid's sports league, or whatever you have passion in, or tutoring or whatever right. Like, you have this, you have this ability to volunteer at the church. You have this ability to volunteer in your circles of influence. And then if, like, those two things aren't there, like you could always look back and just really try to like figure out, okay, what does the Lord gifted me in, and how can I do that? Maybe that's generosity at your workplace, maybe it's generosity in your marriage, um, but there's like layers that you could look at to begin the practice.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's really good, that's really practical. I love that and I would challenge people, I mean we. The reason why we ask this is not, you know, obviously it's not for the sake of like, hey, donate to the or, you know, be generous to the local church.

Speaker 1:

Like that's great, but the idea is that we, you know, we want to challenge you, to explore what God wants to do in and through you. And so, you know, I've heard somebody say this before and I was like that's a bold statement. They said I will pay you back for it. I was like, wow, that was bold. I want to be at that place where I could challenge someone that way, and say that, but we know what it'll do for your life, For sure, For sure.

Speaker 2:

It's literally life-changing. I think about I don't know if it's okay to like kind of bounce over to like a global perspective of this but, I'm fascinated by this state in India.

Speaker 2:

Right now it's called the Mizoram. I might be butchering that. The Mizoram state that they send more missionaries than any other country outside of the United States and it's fascinating what the gospel is doing there and it started with this concept of giving a handful of rice, and so it's the poorest. It's one of the poorest states in India and they are local Christians came and decades and decades ago and they started this like idea of and Pastor Kanji talks about this In Africa. It's called Ubuntu. It's I am because we are instead of America, where we think.

Speaker 2:

I think therefore.

Speaker 1:

I am. I am because we are the America where we think. I think therefore.

Speaker 2:

I am. I am because we are the Mizran people think the same thing. Right, if they have a plate of food, they have enough to share. Yeah, and so you won't be hungry because I'm not hungry? Yep, right, instead of thinking about like, what extra do I have after I created my full plate. In Okinawa, japan, they do the same thing. So back to well, real quick, back to the Mizram. They started just taking a cup of rice and putting it to the side and then bringing that to the church so that the whole village would be fed.

Speaker 2:

And now they started doing that with finances. And it didn't matter if you were poor or rich, you gave a portion of what you had that day. Yeah, that's good, it's a super interesting daily practice that they have. But there's this Netflix documentary. Have you seen it? It's Life in the Blue Zones. You guys should watch it. It's about people that like conglomerates of people that live like more consistently over a hundred years old.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And there's like a few different blue zones in the world Okinawa, japan, has this like principle and I don't know what it is in Japanese, but it's on how they eat and it's called eat to 80%, so you don't eat to 100% full, you eat to 80% full and that allows you to live longer. But the same philosophy exists with generosity, right Like don't keep 100%, you know, like you can if I can, and the Mizran people have adopted this for years and years and years where it's like I don't need hundred percent of my plate to be full of rice.

Speaker 2:

So I can sacrifice a cup, and this idea that if I have, you have, and this communal kind of thing which is so counter-cultural in America, because in America it's all about what I have and if I have excessive amounts, then I can now give you something.

Speaker 1:

Instead of I have something, you have something and we all have something, because if I am, we are you know, wow, such a, such a, such a shift in mindset and gosh man, that really, and we know it's there underlying. But I would say that you, you, there's definitely this idea that through our accumulation and kind of a Western mindset, of like uh you know, from the scarcity mindset to abundance, to like I, I need it's a control issue in our lives.

Speaker 1:

So I look at it from a from a spiritual uh uh angle and say like, if I'm looking to accumulate in my life, I'm looking at control and ultimately I say how this ends. But if we look at that, god's the supplier of a hundred percent of everything we have, including the very breath that we breathe, and that our lives are for him. What I'm not living, if I'm holding onto these things, then I'm not offering it to God to do what he wants to do with it. Sure, I'm setting myself up as a little G God yeah To own that, to do it, to control.

Speaker 2:

I don't need him in my life.

Speaker 1:

I'm now no longer stewarding the accumulation is counterintuitive to that whole idea of generosity. Yeah, and not saying that. You know we always there's, always that scared of having enough, but will God supply that for you? Yeah, so it's just like it's terrifying, it's like crazy. Yeah, it's terrifying, it's a whole thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and, and I you know, I think it's funny people who give cheerfully Like I've given, reluctantly for like a super significant amount of time and, like just recently, starting to feel like I'm giving cheerfully and like, when you look at, like the Greek of cheerful, it's hilarious, it's hilarious.

Speaker 2:

Which was where we get hilarious, and I don't think he's like looking at you, like laughing, like, ah, you're a hilarious giver, right, like I think he's thinking about like the feeling that you have when you're, when it's hilarious, when something's hilarious, right, it's like this, this joyful enthusiasm like this like excitement. This like spontaneity, that like I feel amazing and light and like so excited about what's happening right now. That's kind of what you think about when you're like hilarious to someone else or someone's hilarious to you and you're laughing and it's this joyful enthusiasm.

Speaker 2:

I'm like just so curious what it would look like if we were all hilarious givers, like, where we had this true cheer in our heart, this joyful enthusiasm. Cheer is a weird word. We don't use it in American language almost almost all, so like cheerful is like hard to like express to somebody. So, like we're all joyfully enthusiastic givers right.

Speaker 2:

Like cheerful givers. Like what would that look like? And like how does God still work with you through the reluctant givers, cause he still loves you? Like it's not like God now no longer loves you because you're not a cheerful giver. God just desires that your heart is like his heart in it, right when he was so willing to give everything for you that now you get everything because of it.

Speaker 1:

And it's just a cool thing it really is, and the ultimate perspective on that, too, is that we know that it will never be enough. We know that it will never be enough, and so ultimately too, we place all of our hope and the finality of all this in an eternity with Christ, who will ultimately provide for us forever For sure, and so we'll never find that here in the temporal, so we focus on the eternal and so part of that practice is knowing that, in the end, that God is, will and has been and always will show up.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, right, yeah he started the work and he'll finish the work Right. And like, yeah, and we say it every single Sunday, like he's the reason you have what you have, you know, and so like you're just stewarding what he's trusting you with you know, and some people he's trusted with large wealth and others he trusts with minimal wealth but it's still started with him.

Speaker 2:

And so, like man, when you put all the ownership back on the true owner, like there's so much more freedom in it, right Cause you just get to be a partner now and saying like Lord, what do you want me to do? How do you want me to invest in your kingdom purposes? Instead of like okay, what am I going to? I got to save enough for my McDonald's, otherwise, like my free Chick-fil-A isn't going to work. You know, like, like that's like that's crazy.

Speaker 1:

Well, this is such good conversation, dave. What do you? What would you say? It's always our hope that these conversations are helpful, but what are some resources that we can point people to that you might think they'd find beneficial?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think if you're sitting there and you're like man, I'm not struggling, I'm not living paycheck to paycheck. One of the best resources that you could read to orient yourself to a gift that the Lord has given you is Gospel Patrons.

Speaker 2:

It's specifically talking about the people in historical Christianity that have been the financial backers of the most major missional movements that have happened in Christianity in recent history and it really orients you to like, oh man, this is a gift that I have that I'm entrusted to steward.

Speaker 2:

Beyond that, there's a great podcast. There's a guy named Dr Art Rainer. He does a money podcast Christian financial guy and it's called More Than Money and he talks I mean, I think there's like 400 episodes now. He talks about and it's all money-focused from a biblical perspective and he talks about everything from like college choices to investment practices, to like monthly trends that are happening in the finance industry, like monthly trends that are happening in the finance industry. It's a good resource for pastors, lay leaders, people that are just like trying to get healthy information on money. Whether you're a Christian or not, like it's good information. And then I think, like for anyone that's struggling, that's like man, I just really need more help. Financial Peace University is where you need to go. Dave Ramsey is the most popular voice in the finance market for a reason because his practices work and so they might be intense.

Speaker 1:

And like I think, he's.

Speaker 2:

I think he has a line like you need to have a gazelle, like intensity or something which is so, so crazy to say, but like it works.

Speaker 1:

And like.

Speaker 2:

If you just look at their testimonials, you'll see thousands of people that have, like, conquered this mountain of debt and are now able to live super generous lives because they focused on stewardship, not on accumulation for themselves.

Speaker 1:

Oh, so good. Well, we'll have a show notes on here that'll have links to all this stuff. Uh, also, um, we'll have you know some of the scriptures we referenced as well, as um, I would, for maybe a book coming from.

Speaker 2:

David Bell in the future? I don't know, we'll see how that goes. Yeah, we'll see what the Lord's doing.

Speaker 1:

But, david, any final thoughts or comments, encouragements you'd like to add before we wrap this thing up?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean gosh, I've been a pastor for 10 years and I'm still working on this, so I think the encouragement is that there's grace, right Like the Lord wants all of us and and he's not dissatisfied in in where you're at, but he, he, does want you to experience wholeness in him, and so, like, I'm fully submitted life to him, and so, uh, man, I would encourage you to to have open conversations about this with people that you trust in your life and to start there. And, man, our church is a great resource for that, and so that'd be. The encouragement is, like you don't need to have it figured out today like, but journeying with Christ matters, man, that's so good.

Speaker 1:

Well, there you have it, guys. Thanks for joining us on another episode of the other six days podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe, follow, share and like, spread the word and, as always, take what you've heard and turn it.