The Other 6 Days

A "BIG" Church Conversation | The Other 6 Days | Episode 65

• Southwest Church • Season 3 • Episode 65

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In this episode, we are joined by Pastor Ricky Jenkins as we dive right in to a "Big" discussion megachurches, the in's & outs, advantages, disadvantages, challenges & opportunities. Wether small, medium or large, localized or decentralized... our goal is to help equip our listeners to navigate this ongoing topic with conversations marked by unity, charity & love.


For more information or to join the conversation, head over to https://southwestchurch.com/theother6days or email us at theother6days@southwestchurch.com

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SPEAKER_04:

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Other Six Days podcast where we chat about life outside of Sundays and what it means to live from our gatherings and not just for them. In this episode, Pastor Ricky Jenkins and I jump into a pretty big conversation about church size, the advantages, disadvantages, challenges, and opportunities. Whether small, medium, or large, localized or decentralized, our goal is to help equip our listeners to navigate this ongoing topic with conversations marked by unity, charity, and love. Ricky, we both uh grew up in small church settings and they were pretty formative in our found the foundation of our faith. Yeah. But with that came both the awesome as well as the awkward moments. What were some of those memories that marked you from both the awesome and awkward?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I grew up in a small church where literally everyone was my family. Literally, right? It's probably maybe 200 of us. Yeah. And I don't know anybody I wasn't uh related to. You know, so I think the awkward stuff was that there was no such thing as secrets. Oh. You know, like in our church, right? Like there's plenty of people that have no idea about these elements of my life or these things, you know what I'm saying? But like, not at my church. Like there was no such everything was known. So, like as a little kid, you know, if you if you you know, if you pooped yourself, like now you know, you know, Junior, you know, Junior messed up his draws the other day.

SPEAKER_04:

Why wouldn't you tell everybody in your business?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I that's what I remember. I just I don't remember any specifics, but like it and that was good and bad, right? But we all knew everything about each other, and that was awkward, especially as you think about church today versus how you and I grew up. You know what I mean? So yeah, you couldn't hide.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. What were some of the awesome moments like because of that small context?

SPEAKER_01:

Man, there was not there was, you know, I think about it more and more. Um I couldn't have articulated this then because you didn't know it was abnormal.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Right? 40 years removed, I can look back at it and say, Man, I'm the you just struck a chord to be known, to be loved, and to be accepted for who you were. And you didn't know it then, because that's all you knew. Yeah. But now looking back on that, what I would give for that feeling of safety, yeah. You know what I mean? And belonging that church gave me. I knew I was loved. I knew I was accepted, I knew I was known. So that was the but I didn't know it then.

SPEAKER_04:

You didn't know it then. Right? I know it now. Yeah, I actually would have said that that was like you said, kind of part of that piece of the awkward sometimes is that everyone knew your business. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

But the beauty of it was good, that's good. That they knew who you were, they accepted you for who like you, like I'm loved.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, and I'm known and seen.

SPEAKER_00:

What made it great and what made it tough was the same thing. Yeah. That's a good point, man. That's cool.

SPEAKER_04:

That's pretty much kind of the same. My church was called family heritage. It literally was like a tight family. Yeah. And so, you know, I wana versus memorization, all the things like I mean, my parents, I got to see my other parents in that context give their lives completely to the local church, which was wonderful from a serve thing. We lived at the church. And so, you know, I didn't like that as a kid, but now I know, like I mean, you know, when my parents said like this is what we're about, I'm like, Yeah, you guys lived it out.

SPEAKER_00:

That's right.

SPEAKER_04:

And so um priority, dedication, loyalty. Uh but you know, it's a great foundation to my faith. So beauty in that, um, awkward stuff, uh, potlucks, man, nicknames. I think I had a whole bunch. I was disciplined by I was allowed to be disciplined by, you know, six different people in the church. So because everyone knew me so well, I was always getting in trouble. And they were all allowed to, you know, light me up. So that's it. That was a little awkward. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

We had um again, everybody's your cousin. So you had the Usher board. Yeah. And in my church, they wore white uniforms, literally white nurse uniforms.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01:

So you looked like they looked like nurses, had the nurse hats on, but that was Usher uniform. Okay. White stockings, white orthopedic shoes. Like if you were Usher, that's what you wore as a woman. And then the guys wore black suits with black ties and white shirts, and they all had on white gloves. So that was how we came up. Yeah. Well, Aunt Chris, my great aunt, Aunt Christola, who was in her 70s when I was a teen, our our our elementary school kid. Well, if you got in trouble in church, you had what ain't Aunt Chris called twig medicine. So she had full range. She was our aunt, great aunt. Yeah. But she would just snatch you up if you were messing up with some Hot Wheels cars, and she'd make you pick out your own switch. Which you had to pick it out, and that was your twig medicine.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh man, we had that to the bridge. And then you always like, should I go a little thicker? Because you can't swing it as fast. Exactly. You get the little whippy bun, and you're like, oh, that thing stings. Yeah. Yes, yes. Man, that was a whole different area.

SPEAKER_01:

Me and you were raised by people who took that Bible passage, use the rod of correction.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, exactly. Oh man.

SPEAKER_01:

They took that literally.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh. I'm using I'm stealing the twig medicine. Twig medicine. Twig medicine. Well, our conversation today in this episode, we're jumping into a big conversation about church and pun intended there. This uh conversation has become increasingly a hot topic of debate, even though it's been happening for some to some degree for well over a hundred years. Um, big, small, um, you know, organizational priorities, affecting this of churches, uh, widely varietying perspectives on what constitutes a megachurch. There's so much to talk about on this topic. Well, we could do a multi-episode series. So today we're just going to do our best to provide some clarity on some healthy and helpful gospel-inspired ways to move forward. So, what do you think uh is primarily meant when people use the term mega church?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you know, I think that's the opportunity for the discussion, right? Because I think there's a standard, right, conventional meaning that we'll espouse now. But man, the reason you and I wanted to have this conversation, because most of it people use it as um a derogatory term that means something totally different. Hence that hence our conversation. But I mean, technically speaking, right, there's all kinds of churches. Uh there's house churches where there's usually less than a couple of dozen people. Average church in America, somewhere, I think around 60 to 70 people, right? Uh 65% of our churches are in that kind of ballpark, so a small church. Um you can get to the other side of 200, where you're more like an average-sized church or above average. And I think big, I would say, according to statistics, is anywhere from 350 to 2000, right? Mega in our in my world is officially 2,000 and weekend attendance or more. Here lately, they started this gigabyte church. That's just that's just stupid. So stop saying Giga. That's just dumb. That's just lame.

SPEAKER_00:

Giga church. Are you mega? We're like selling giga right now, bro. Like, shut up.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh and according to LifeWay Research, yeah, there's approximately 1,700, 1,750 mega churches. That's people with over 2,000 weekend attendants, even though 65% of churches have fewer than 100 attendees. Uh, there was a stat that came out uh this week. They did some surveys. So now most church attending Americans now ascribe to a non-denominational church entity. Yeah. So the average church attendance tender in America is going to a church that shows up as a non-denominational church. I can't wait to get into that data because I'm pretty sure that is a weak sauce survey, right? And I think because our church is denominational, but nobody knows. Yeah. Like I'd be surprised if half our staff remembers that we're part of denomination. We just don't wear it on the sign anymore. So I think that's part of the SKU data, but it does speak to how influential the megachurch culture, right, has has broadened and deepened and how Americans show up for church. So, anyways, that's pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Yeah, I like that you said that because this conversation's around that idea that it's mostly a derogatory description, you know, used in more of a critical context, then that's kind of what we're addressing today because uh, you know, it's not like, oh, hey, you go to a mega church. It's you know, oh a mega church. Yeah. So it's good. Yeah. So uh what uh what are some like typical defining characteristics or hallmarks of larger size church models?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So let's gotta let's bring some structure to the conversation. I love, I love your question. I think a good analogy before we talk about some of the particulars are restaurants. And so there's the local restaurant that only locals go to, right? Tourists don't know about it, they're never gonna hear about it because it's mom and pop, you know, June Bug's running it. Yeah, you know, he's smoking ribs in the back, you know what I mean? Uh mall is taking your order, you know what I mean? Um, and it's delicious and nothing can replace it. Yeah. But then you see like the big franchise, yeah, right. And they've got streamlined drive-through and they've got marketing, and they've got for that, and it's the same thing. Okay. So if I go to um McDonald's here, it's gonna taste just like the McDonald's and the next church and all that kind of stuff. Streamline systems efficiency. Yeah. And I think that really helps kind of nuance some of the differences between a mega church and your regular local kind of small church, right? So some of the things, a mega church, you can expect a large weekend gathering, right? Um, on a pronounced campus and a good location. Uh, and then you've got multiple programmatic offerings, right? So there's kind of something for everybody. So kids usually has a robust kids' ministry. So my kids go to this church and have a good time. Yeah, right. Like it's safe, it's secure, they got stuff to do for kids, um, pronounced programs for every age demographic. And so just the programmatic offerings are there. Almost always it's gonna be like a modern, progressive worship environment, right? That's almost part and parcel of what you would have at a concert of your favorite artists, right? There's gonna be screens, there may be some smoke machines. But, anyways, it's what the big boys do in the secular environment. Mega churches kind of copy and paste some of that for worship. Yep. Uh almost always they're gonna leverage systems, you know, efficiency, um, organization. Like the the telltale um metaphor that guys have used is little church organic, big church organized.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And each one is trying to get back to the other one to have balance. Uh a lot of megachurch is gonna have multiple services to give you more options, um, and then kind of like a whole blended spiritual formation, right? So whereas the local church spiritual formation is listen to this one pastor who's gonna teach you God's word, go to a Sunday school class and do life together with that whole hundred people in that church. Well, megachurch is gonna process that with something called assimilation. So we're gonna create steps for you to experience a small church in this big church environment, right? So you're gonna be in a small group, or you're gonna be in a men's group, you're gonna be in a women's group, or you're gonna, you know, we're we created next steps for you to have like a church within the church kind of experience where you can be known, where you can belong. So that's kind of some of the things that I would say separated. Would you add anything to that, CJ?

SPEAKER_04:

No, I think you nailed it. I mean, like the whole idea of purpose-built ministry environments, like I think like, you know, and that's like you train musicians is kind of the big one because there's a hallmark is usually like worship-oriented. And so, you know, we have a variety of, you know, they're using all kinds of arrangements and musical instruments and vocalists.

SPEAKER_01:

It's not just Claudale over there uh playing the only four songs she knows on the orbit.

SPEAKER_04:

Get up here and play it. Yeah, you know. Yeah, yeah. There's a yeah, there's a lot of pre-planning and thought that went into a lot of these things. And then also from my side, like technology media production, like professional audio. That's right. Like you're using all these, we're pioneering new sensory experiences with like high quality production. That's right. So I think like that plays into it because we, you know, we know that like you know, that's very like attractive, especially for, and we'll get into it, new believers and things like that. So there's some opportunity there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And excellence.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and some of that speaks to the obvious, right? Larger means more resources. Yeah. And you use the word professional, right? Your average mega church is probably gonna have multiple staff that are paid to think about how to make this church service amazing. Yep. Like, right? Like me and you are in what, three meetings a week? A week just to Well, we're just talking about one hour this coming up weekend. Yep. Whereas the local church, probably around the corner, you know, the pastor just wrote down this and worship leader gave him that, these hymns on page number such and such, and that's it. You know what I mean? Let's go to church and and make it happen. So, yeah, it's it's it's interesting the differences.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, we spend a lot of time thinking about environments and experiences and things for people.

SPEAKER_01:

So we do.

SPEAKER_04:

Um, so how did this whole mega church conversation get its start? Like, what would you say to some of that, you know, modern and you know, biblical?

SPEAKER_01:

I I love your question. I wish we had time to delve into that historically because I think that's worthy of some historicity behind that question. I think in the modern uh experiment of church is we are on the other side of um, you know, enlightenment era thinking, where there's a lot of contention between with the church, right? Do we lean into rationalism? Do we lean into humanism, right? Do we do something to espouse our own worth outside of the institution of the church, which was a conversation that Western civilization was having for like 200 years, you know? And we get on the other side of that and things kind of fall apart again as it always does, and people say, Hey, maybe we need to listen to Jesus again. And this is when we hear a lot of the 19th century big-time voices that married with a moment of industrialization, that married with a moment of technology where you can actually hear people more than you ever could. Enter in guys like Charles Spurgeon and kind of um between first and second grade awakening preachers that really became famous. Um, Spurgeon, a little later on, the DL Moody's of the world, all these folks who kind of had these pronounced huge voices. But it was coupled with a moment of industrialization in America and in Europe, where people are moving out of the farms into cities working at factories. For the first time, cities are starting to blossom and get bigger than ever before, right? So it wasn't all of us in our little rural communities with us 30 people going to this little church house and because we're all strawberry farmers. Yeah. No, we're all being industrialized. We've all left the farm. We're all living in cities. There's thousands of us living in tenements in London, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And so it gave this opportunity for people with expansive preaching gifts, teaching gifts, right, to have these huge followings like Spurgeon and others, right? Later on in America, there's a guy named Amy McPherson, Four Square Movement, right? Had a 5,300 seat auditorium. Over in Europe, Spurgeon had a 6,000 seat auditorium. We see this fast-forwarded to the Jesus People movement of the 1970s, right? And that's there's other, there's other socio-political new classes that explains all this stuff. But yeah, I think when you and I, even those of us who don't know about the stuff I've just said, right, it's it's a product of what it means to have more and more um centralized space. And what I mean by that is the city is still a relatively new phenomenon in America. You know what I mean? Where a constitution was not written to people in cities, it was written to people in the plains. You know, there was Philly in New York and sh and um Charlotte and you know, whatever else the towns were, but it was really about rural, right? We're all agrarian people. Yeah. But then these things get invented that bring us all closer together. You know what I mean? So it has yeah, the church life has everything to do with economy. You know what I mean? It's just a a theme. That's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02:

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And you I know you're gonna bring this up later when we talk about the first church, the early church. Yeah, right. The the mega the first church was a technically a megachurch that was born in a city. Yeah. So think about that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, like God was using the progression of humankind to continue to bring to bear his gospel and his witness, to use the technology and the movements of the day to allow for the gospel to be proliferated. So, anyways, that I'm not I'm not meaning to get into all that, yeah, but I think it's very important to understand that I don't know the church of the last hundred years in America that has grown exponentially, that was not also located in a county that was growing exponentially because of some socioeconomic political reason. Yeah, absolutely. None. Yeah. So Bill Highball's Willow Creek, it was amazing. You look at the history, everyone's moving to West Suburbs of Chicago.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh you look at guys like um Charles Stanley, you look at guys like Rick Warren, you look at guys like um the National Association of Evangelical guys up in Colorado, right? Were they gifted? Yeah. Were they anointed? Yeah. But they were coupled with these rapid moments of expansion in the counties in which they lived in, right? I don't know the church that's grown rapidly that people were not already moving to. So it's something going on there too, where we have to say mega churches have been good not so much at um creating opportunities, but rather seizing and catalyzing opportunities that were already happening.

SPEAKER_02:

Man, wow.

SPEAKER_01:

Guess what? Entering Southwest Church. So when I moved here eight years ago, there were 300,000 year-round people living in the Coachella Valley. Eight years.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Eight years later, there are now 500,000 people living here year-round. Our church has grown by 1,100 people. So it's not because we were that great.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's my point. We hadn't done, we hadn't changed much. You know what I'm saying? I'm still an idiot. Like you, you know, so so what is that? Well, yeah, God's hand is moving, but it's also a lot more people here. So the mega church has a lot to do with capturing and seizing and catalyzing what was already happening in the culture. Wow.

SPEAKER_04:

So that's so good. That's so helpful, I think. Like, well, even just for me, like even having done some study on this and stuff, is you go back over the history and you talk about just the socioeconomic and the geopolitical and the geographic and then enlightenment, industrial revolution, where it all kind of it's all culmin, it's starting to progress towards this moment. And then that we had a propensity to gather. And so as you have a larger, you know, uh uh, you know, uh population, people are gonna naturally gather. That's it. So I mean, even like your Billy Graham Air is like I'm thinking of like, you know, when he's going out, you didn't have a building at the time necessarily, but you had gatherings that were massive. And so as people settle into less of a sprawling urban environment, more of a city, you're gonna naturally have these expressions.

SPEAKER_01:

That's it. I mean And it's always been the case.

SPEAKER_04:

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, even early colonial history, um maybe not colonium, maybe on the other side of the establishment of the United States, right? Circuit preachers, Methodist preachers, uh, as we're growing further and further west in westward expansion in pioneers. Yeah. The old saying used to say in the wild in the wild, wild west, if you're out at your campsite and you see the bushes rustling, you don't know if it's a bear or a Methodist. Well, what was that? It was preachers going where the people were. You know, you look at Charles Wesley and the revival movements of those guys, John Wesley, right? Like throngs and throngs of people to come to hear him. But they was because there were throngs and throngs of people who were already organizing. And so pr wise men of God, women of God who just knew how to catalyze that.

SPEAKER_04:

So Well, and uh you started to mention, I love it, and we'll talk just a little bit more on the Acts uh on the church in Acts Pentecost. But um, I was just thinking, man, even Paul was strategic in how he went out to like you know, Galatia, Ephesus and like all these Corinth. He started landing in these different areas that he's like, this is the way the gospel can go out. That's it. Paul can go to the country. No, he's like, there's a bunch of people, there's roads that lead into these places. There's industry happening. That's it. These ships are gonna take this over somewhere else. Like it was a strategic move for the gospel to go out.

SPEAKER_01:

That's it. We went to Ephesus a few months ago and we're there, you know, um Eastern Turkey, yeah, across the across the water there. And you go to this town, right, that's ruins now, but they're reconstructing it. And you know, it would have been the port here, one of the more active ports in the Roman Empire, and there's the city. It's there. Water city. And there's libraries, there's these great houses of the state, the places of worship, the Colosseum, the desk place. And Paul was like the axe comes alive because it's just like dude was here. And it's like literally, this is downtown.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Right? Same thing for Corinth. Oh, this that's where that happened. Oh, this is in the heart of downtown of one of the more you know, fierce commandeering commercial centers of Earth. Yeah. So, anyways, it's uh that's that was way too long a tangent. But I think it's important to see that mega churches ain't so much special as they are opportunistic.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Which by all for the sake of the gospel. Amen. And uh and and you had said it, uh, yeah, by every modern definition of megachurch, the Jerusalem church quickly became the first mega church in history. So you see it all throughout history. So today this really is a conversation about people's wide variety of particular positions, postures, and perspectives on the preferred function of church, right? You said it. The little, you know, the I love the restaurant analogy. But I think the best way to approach this is probably if I tee up some of the most common statements, comments, and assumptions, even accusations, uh, to just kind of cue up our conversation. That's good. So um I'll just kind of throw some out there and then we'll we'll respond.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Uh large churches.

SPEAKER_01:

And what you mean by that, CJ is you're saying here's what people say. Yeah. So but what is what is really real?

SPEAKER_04:

I did a whole bunch of digging, I went off all the common ones, pulled up all of the most, and then even some of the stuff that we've heard, you know, locally, but just you know, pulling it together to say, hey, how can we respond? Got it. And I think it'll be most fruitful. Got it. So large churches, large churches focus on reaching wide rather than going deep. So that whole mile-wide inch deep comment. One person even commented 80% illustration, uh twin uh spiritual TED talk, and 20% Bible. That's so good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I I've heard that a lot, you know. Um, and I think there's truth to it. I think their church is guilty of that, but their problem is I've been small and big. Yep.

SPEAKER_04:

I was gonna say that. I was thinking that I was like, you you've seen it all.

SPEAKER_01:

I've seen that on both sides of the equator equation. I think what happens in a lot of, especially in the social media moment, is that um it's all we hear about, so we assume that's indicative of the whole.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, that's so good. Right? Right?

SPEAKER_01:

So it's just like if all your algorithm shows you is Joel Osteen, yeah, you no offense, Pastor Osteen. Yeah, uh, but you think that everybody's that's churches. You know what I'm saying? And so, yeah, like in your out your algorithm your algorithm feeds you with what you hate to keep you angry. Wow. And so it really doesn't speak to the entirety of the experience. I hear that a lot. That like we have an elder here, Randy. I don't think Randy would mind me sharing this. Randy was visiting here, they didn't live here, and they were looking for a church to visit and saw our church and saw some signs and stuff like that. And Randy said some of the effects, oh no, that no way that church in California is gonna be solid. Yeah. Like he immediately assumed, because it's big, yeah, it's not deep. Yeah. And he's an elder here now. Oh, he moved here. He moved from Atlanta to come to this solid.

SPEAKER_04:

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, just be you know, you can't judge a book by its cover. Yeah. And I think I think that's what I would say. Um, I think a lot of churches are guilty of that. But I think one of the affects of healthy megachurches is that they have been deep and they have been scriptural, yeah, and they have been serious about orthodoxy and Jesus in Christ, hence its growth. Yeah. So that's my two things.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I love that. You always say we're a Jesus church, Bible-based, and so that's right. And um, I love what you said though. Man, that we could just this could go on forever. But the uh the social media sound bites piece is huge. I didn't even I mean, here I do online and digital stuff, and I didn't think about some most of the stuff we put out actually is just the short clips of things, the highlight reels. Right. So, like you said, it's not the totality of what happens here. That's good. And so you can't you you can see what's going on with that, but you can't judge it by that.

SPEAKER_01:

It's just uh that's a good line you were about to stumble into. You can't judge a song by the clip. Yeah, but that's a good idea. That's so good.

SPEAKER_04:

That was so good. All right. Uh here's another one. The larger the church, the less personal it becomes. They have a propensity to create environments that allow people to remain anonymous and disconnected, and they foster a consumer-driven model. Um, again, uh, you know, shallow churches create shallow Christians, uh, and their their size creates an inability to disciple people effectively.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think I think I think the veneer of the experience of the mega church lends to that. I think people can easily come for a couple of Sundays and see the bigness, the largeness, thousands of people, and assume, right, that it's going to be less personal. Yeah. And to give them credit, right? Like, I don't know everybody at this church. You, you know? So like I don't know everybody. And that so so I get that, but just because you don't know everybody doesn't constitute that there's not a a vivid, alive, you know, meaningful connection that's happening. Mega churches have to create smaller churches within the church. And so that's why small groups is preached at almost every megachurch you go to, they're gonna talk about small groups. Why? Because we also know that what gets you in the door doesn't keep you in it, right? And if megachurches understand that if we we call it stickiness, if you don't have relationships to stick to, yeah, you are out and the back door opens. And so I would just say that at Southwest at least, men's groups, women's groups, right, young adult groups, um, Tuesday morning groups, Tuesday night groups, groups, groups, groups, groups, groups, where we're trying to create a microcosm of the Christian experience in real meaningful connections and circles, right? So like I think that's imperative. Um, we took the residents to Willow Creek a few weeks ago, and of course it's massive, right? 7,500 seat auditorium. Now we're 4,000, but they're like they're probably 16,000 these days. Well, one of our kids says, Yeah, I just don't know, like, man, it's so big. Like, I don't know how they just I'd hate to just not, you know, be known and not, you know, just do relationships well. I said, Well, how do you know that? And he says, Well, I mean, they're big. I said, How do you know that? He's like, Well, I mean, you know, you can't know. I was like, how do you know that? Yeah. He's like, I mean, I I don't. I said, right, you don't. Yeah. You don't know that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Right? And I said, churches like this work really hard to create streamlined processes for people to be connected and be known and be pastored and be shepherded and be careful well. And then I told all the residents, it says, Hey, some of you're gonna be little church guys, some of you're gonna be medium church guys, some of you be big church guys. Your goal is to not despise one over the other. Yeah, and your goal is to understand that God can work in them all. You know what I mean? Yeah, and so there's sometimes I'm my buddy Dave Gordon over at um Trinity. Trinity Baptist, who's a wonderful man of God. They they may have 80, 90, 120 folks, whatever it is. Wonderful pastor. There's some days I'm so jealous because Dave knows exactly what he has. There's no question. You know, then there's some days I'm so happy to be me.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Depends on the day. Exactly. Depends on the day, right?

SPEAKER_01:

To to in other words, to not know exactly what I have, but to trust that as we create these systems based on scripture for people to be discipled and thereby make disciples, that God is bearing fruit. You know what I mean? And here's the sweet thing. I think God will give us the same size crown. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

You know what I mean? Well, we all get there. So anyways. Oh man, I love that. Gosh, there's so much in this. I you know what? This is actually, I mean, this is pretty much my ministry testimony is that I find I'm a small church guy. I came from a small church. That's what I was raised in. That's what I know. That's what I know, both of the awkward and the awesome, you know. But but I also realize that for me, I've come to love, and I mean, it's been something that God has really challenged me in is the that He's like, there's so much opportunity within a large church to make it feel smaller. And so mine is getting to know, I can get a I can get to know multiple small church people within the context of a large church, but I'm actually looking at like, I mean, I go out and engulf and do all the different ministry opportunities and get engaged with people, but I was like, man, there's so much. Like I realized that God, He, He, at one point I remember him correct, because I was like, man, Mega Church is so big, you know, it can't, you can't get lost in it. And then I was like, well, but I but I want to help be a part of that. I want to be a part of helping disciple people within that context of meeting people where they're at. And there's so much opportunity. I mean, the amount of sheer volume of people that I get to engage with on a regular basis as a pastor at Southwest is phenomenal. And so there's it's an endless flood of opportunity to engage people with the gospel.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, coupled with, right, like I hear you saying the impact can be greater, not better. Not better, but greater. But greater, yeah. Right. So, so, so I love that about our church and our position in the community. Here's what I also love about it we get to impact people who will impact other people. Yeah. And so, like, there's a something about our valley that gives us that thing. But mega churches in any community, because God's entrusted them with more resources, more people, I think thereby have a responsibility. Yeah, I'm saying. So, like, how many times do we bless churches in this valley? How many times do we bless pastors in this valley? And I don't think it's because we're big and bad, I think because we better with all that God's given us. You know what I'm saying? So I think there's something to be said about the professionalism that that our team can have because of what God's entrusted to us, the specialization that we can have. I think there's something to be said about um the resources we can accumulate, the stuff we can get done that ends up making this valley better. So I'll I'll I'll I'll close this thought with um uh Chris Hushall told me this when I first got here. He says, dude, when Southwest is doing well, everybody's doing well. Yeah. And there are people that come get saved here, but the church is too big for them. Yeah. Yeah, it's just too big.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I want to I want to help and see the and they go to Chris's church. Yeah. And Chris is like, yeah, Doc, thanks for thanks for catching that fish. But I'm gonna fry him. You know what I'm saying? So like and I love that.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, it's I love that. I know. I I love that too. Man, well, and what other church on the that what other church I mean some churches have this now, but guest services and hospitality, man. We do a great job of making it a big church feel something. The first thing they say when we walk in, they're like I was greeted by so many people. That's it. Like the hospitality piece is huge. That's it. And I never valued that at a small church just because I actually tried to avoid as many people as I could. And that, you know, I'm not digging on that, but like at our church, we go out of our way to make sure that people feel welcome. We do. We do. I'm proud of us for that.

SPEAKER_00:

We do a great job. I think we do it better than anybody.

SPEAKER_04:

So um one of this is probably one of the bigger ones that most people get that you know you hear about um that the larger church gets, the more the lead pastor is no longer personally accessible. Coffees, dinners, weddings, memorials, funerals, you know, all the things like you, you, you become less available personally.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think it's true. Yeah, by the way. I think that's totally true. Like, you know, um, yeah, I think that's very true. Yeah. But I will also say, um, where's the biblical virtue, right, and knowing any human over and above Jesus? So I would push back against that. So the first mega church gets so busy that the apostles say, Hey, uh, all we've been doing all day is serving tables. Translation, feeding the poor, clothing such and such, and the ministry of the gospel is um is is been set aside. And so the Bible says Peter and them, they literally create the deaconate, a deaconate, and and they create deacons to go service the people and be with the people so that they could attend to their ministry. And it's this idea of giving ministry away. Yeah. Um, Southwest has 15 pastors when our slate is full. You know what I mean? I always tell people that, you know, if I'm coming to see you, you in trouble. Like something you died. You know, you know what I'm saying? Like I'm you know And it's not because it's but but but it's like I like your stat here. Um Dunbar's um theory is that human the average human being can only maintain about 150 stable social relationships at one time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And so once the church gets bigger, the church has to give more ministry away to other leaders, other small group leaders, other pastors to better shepherd the people. Yeah. Because at some point it gets to, yeah, if I'm pastoring, yeah, I'm I don't even know where I can't even find my keys. Right? But like, but yeah, I think that access is there, but it's also I don't think it's a biblical thing. You know what I mean? I think I think it's a comfort thing. I think it's a postmodern thing. Yeah, but it's not a quality thing. Yeah. And I know you and I know your life, and I know how you preach funerals for our people, you go visit our people, you sit for our people, Pastor today, and there's 15 more CJs here that are doing that work, and they're better at it than me. Like they really are. And I just love the fact that a bigger church means more people can delve deeper into the ministry and the gifting that God gave him for the betterment of the church. And I've seen that time and time again.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, amen. I was thinking even just from my like our my own personal context, I was like, man, as much as people would love to see you come and start typing in the chat on the weekend for church online, I don't know if they want you running that whole thing for the weekend.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't think they do.

SPEAKER_04:

Because we won't be up. Like I don't think that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01:

And I was like, yeah. I'll tell this story. Natalie's our executive pastor, and this is about a year and a half ago. And um it upset me, then she explained herself. And she says, Hey, I need you to stop hanging around at the end of service. And I said, Excuse me? Yeah. And she said, I need you to stop like hanging out at the stage and shaking hands and stuff like that. I says, What are you talking about? I said, No, what do you mean? Are you crazy? And she's like, I counted for the last four Sundays that you did that. We've got five, six volunteers at every table so people can pray with people, get them into their next step. And I noticed that when you stay, people create one line to talk to you for 20 seconds each instead of going to all those volunteers to let them have their ministry and talk to people who can actually help them and meet with them.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I need you to stop hanging out after the end of service.

SPEAKER_02:

That was good.

SPEAKER_01:

And I had, you know, I I'll if I do it, I get in trouble. But like I just don't do that anymore because I realize all y'all gonna do is ask me stuff I can't do for you anyways. Yeah. But Pastor So-and-so over there, he can hang out with you tonight. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04:

That's so good. Man, on so many levels, that's rich. Because, you know, also too, it sets a precedence for like, you know, that maybe this is the way that we get to engage on a regular basis, but it's just not physically possible. Like you're human. You've got your 150. That's right. Like it's just that that's just how it goes. And so we equip everyone and they, you know, and layer, yeah. That's smash.

SPEAKER_01:

And it makes a better church. Yeah. Because remember when you and I were talking about our little churches, what made it sweet was that we were known, loved, accepted for who we were. You know what I mean? That's that's what makes you stay at a church. It's that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It's not preaching.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Preaching's gotta be biblical, but that's not it. Yeah, it's not the singing, that's good, but that's not it. Am I known? Am I loved? Am I accepted for who I am? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

So yeah, life together. Wow. That's so good. Um, so the megachurch is often considered an attractional church model, requiring uh the megachurches, uh, requiring it to be focused on growth, acquisition, and prospering. Um, you know, a lot of times an effort to expand the brand will stretch, overspend, and become consumed with raising money, ultimately building castles, not kingdoms. So, yeah, what do you say to that?

SPEAKER_01:

I'd say just say, do you want us to suck? Yeah. Would you rather not suck? Like, would you do you want us to be bad? Do you want us to be terrible? Right? Like sometimes I want to say, like, like, shut up. And I gotta be careful, but you know, it's kind of like just because you're good at it doesn't mean you're a bad person. Yeah. It doesn't mean you're a bad church. Yeah. And I hear that all the time, where it's just like, oh, they just do all the smoke screens and all the lights and all the crap. No, no, we got artists that are trying to tell a story about Jesus and work pretty darn hard. Yeah. Last week we did an illustration on revivals and students around the country, and and there was like eight colleges where we showed a looping video of what these colleges were doing. Oh, yeah, that was really good.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Danny worked his butt off to get that done. He had to call those people, get permission, get the right video footage, edit it, put it on the screen for like uh like 60 seconds that inspire people. Yeah. And just like, like, do you want us to suck? Yeah. Like, like that was that took a lot of stuff. But like the people who say that it's just attractionalism and it's just this and it's just that. I was, I would simply say, okay, fine. We'll stop doing it and we'll reach less people so you can be happy. Okay, fine. You know what? We'll tell, we'll just have one service and we'll close the other three so you can be comfortable. Yeah, and we not reach more people. Good luck for that. Yeah, because that's your option. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's your option. So it's like, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

So if that's your benchmark.

SPEAKER_01:

If that's your benchmark, we we can't.

SPEAKER_04:

We're not even talking about the main thing.

unknown:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, so that's it's really gets in the way.

SPEAKER_01:

My Bible says he said, go out into all the world, compel them to come. So it's like, yeah, there's there's no biblical virtue in small, there's none in large. But the calling is to reach as many people as we can. So that's what I would say to that dude.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I appreciate that. And I, you know, I wrote, we were resourced in order to be a resource. So the blessing in order to be a blessing, like the stuff that we give away, the opportunities to reach more people. I mean, dude, the PODs, the weddings, the memorials, the community partnerships, our thrift store. I mean, talk about pastoral training, residency, counseling center, preschool. I mean, the amount of stuff that we get to do for the valley and the community. That's it. I'm just always so thankful for the reach. That's it. And so, and then online, you don't get to do a lot of online churches. My entire like ministry and thing that I get to do here that I feel God's called me to and gifted me, just like Danny for that video that he gets to share the story. I get to do that for our church online community and we get to reach even further and disciple more people.

SPEAKER_01:

That's it. And sometimes you just want to say in your flesh, you know, sometimes you just want to say, What are you doing?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

unknown:

What are you doing?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we're gonna buttons off to try. Yeah, what are you doing? What are you doing? Other than complaining, I guess so tired of Pharisees, bro.

SPEAKER_01:

And I know them closely, and it's just like never happy. But then you say, You you don't even you're not even here every Sunday.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Right? You don't even you're not even involved. It's just like, come on. We can't we gotta stop doing that.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, no, that's good. Yeah. Um all right. Typically, uh typically large churches highlight a personality-driven model which lends itself to lack of accountability, making it prone itself prone to more uh moral failure, abuse. You know, we've seen this in the headlines and stuff. So, what what would you say to some of that stuff?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you need to be a small church for 30 years, like I was. They was falling just as much as the big boys. That's okay. It's just just as much, just as much uh foolishness in a small church. I don't know what they get that from. Sin is sin.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know what I mean? And power to be driven by power is to be driven by power. Again, you hear more about the failure of big time pastors. That's what it is, yeah. But I'm telling you, it happens everywhere, and that is true of history. It's true of human history forever. Yeah. So, yeah, I think there's a point. I think that's the point to be made, but make it on all levels.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, no, that's really good. I like that you said that that you that you just hear about it more because the exposure, right? Yeah, exactly. So and then Have say like I love to we have congregational led elder board shepherds, you know. Uh I mean you have pastoral cohorts, you have more people with another point.

SPEAKER_01:

People are like, yeah, like people and again, we don't put this on the front door, so I get where people come in from sometimes. But like you come to this church, all you're gonna hear is me preach yeah, kanji singh. Yeah. That's about it. So you sometimes get the illusion that that's all that's happening. Yeah, you know. Let me tell you something. Y'all, everybody listening got one boss. I got eight. You know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'm so not in charge. Yeah. You're you're under a microscope. You know what I'm saying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh man, that's good. So good. So uh another one. Large, well-resourced mega churches steal congregants from other smaller community churches.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I you know what? I I think uh we don't steal sheep here, right? Uh I can't tell you the number of people I've encouraged to go to other places. We send way more sheep than we welcome at Southwest. Yeah. And so, man, one of the sweet things is watching people grow up in Christ. Uh, Tony, I forget Tony's last name, saxophone player, who was a lovely man of God with his wife that were here, but felt compelled to go to a little church around the corner and help them build up their ministry. I can't tell you how much joy we got sending them to go do that with some meaningful energy. I think we send more people. Now, hey, we don't steal sheep, but I declare we keep the gate open. So you almost want to say to the small church person, let one of our members come to your church and let me hear your testimony of how you send them back to me. I bet you didn't. I bet you said, Hey, welcome. We love that. So I don't you know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00:

So, anyway, no, I love that.

SPEAKER_04:

I better leave that alone. Yeah, you gotta be careful, huh? Well, Joby Martin in his podcast, you said that uh small churches, you know, they sometimes, you know, small churches themselves were guilty of ripping on some big churches for some of the stuff. And this just leaves a lot of people, especially men, with another reason not to go to any church. And so um I thought, and also too, I know personally my dad who uh and you know uh you know a few other guys, they they first received the gospel from televangelists and uh you know these large-scale churches, you know, men and uh and I that that's how they came to Christ. That's right. And so, you know, there's a place for all of that with the larger church.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And then I think too, some of the smaller communities I've noticed. We talk about a lot of dying churches, right? Like a lot of smaller churches. Right. And I think they leave those neighborhoods and communities without a gospel outpost. Yeah, and so I think like that does a disservice to that local area. So what it's so it's not about big or small, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's about impactful, impact or no impact, right? It's just it's all that all that matters. And CJ, I preached to 25 people for eight years. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, and guess what? I was happy. Yeah, I was fulfilled, yeah, bearing fruit. Yeah. And you know what? The weight of 4,000, 4,500, whatever we are. Yeah. The weight of 4,500 and 25, did you know that's the same weight?

SPEAKER_02:

It's the same, it's the same weight.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, which means I think it'll be have the same reward in heaven. So I've just been on both sides of it. I love that. I think there's wins and losses to each or whatnot, but again, when we get to heaven, he's not gonna say well done, good and successful servant. He's not even gonna say well done, good and fruitful servant. Yeah. Oh yeah. He's gonna say, Well done, good and faithful servant. Be faithful where you're playing it.

SPEAKER_04:

So I've always loved your posture and approach to that stuff too, because of you coming in your background with a small church and now like a larger church. Like, I love the way that you're able to, you know, come alongside people and the pain points and some of the challenges and stuff there, but also encourage people to. I mean, you just have a really great perspective, and uh, I think that's always been like I've always appreciated that.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think it's an encouragement to some some people listening to like fully invest in the season. Yeah, God has you. Yeah, nothing God waste no time. I think one of the sweet things I enjoy, and I hope I do a good job at it, and I hope I always do a good job at it. And if I'm not good doing a good job, I hope I do a better job at it. But I love working with our team here. What is it, 95 humans on staff? Really 70, because 25 is at preschool, and we never see them. But, anyways, it's just 70 of us, and I love working with them. I love working with you. I love being a part of this team. And here's the thing that I think that has been sweet to me. There's not there's not too many positions under this roof I haven't worked in. It's just it's just not too many I have. I ain't saying I'm good at them. I'm just saying there's there's not much in a church I hadn't done.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I've been facilities guy, I've been clean up the uh uh repatch tiles on the roof guy. I've been the janitor. You know, I've been in I got to do it all. So like I see our facilities people, I'm like, I know what it's like to be you. Hey, buddy, thank you for knocking that out. Yeah, I've been the tech guy, I've been the worship guy, I've been the youth guy, Lord knows that. I've been the discipleship guy, I've been the outreach guy. So, man, I just love the privilege I have to say thank you and to see these wonderful men and women and the work that they get done for the kingdom, man. It's my I love being cheerleader. I love it. I love it. Anyways, that's off subject, but no, you you stirred up something there, reverence. And here's the last point. What? Do you want us to suck? Double down on that one.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh man. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's a fair question. So, Ricky, uh, any thoughts along the lines of uh what's in store for the future of the church or what that might hold?

SPEAKER_01:

I think the immediate future, and that means short term, is more of what we've been seeing. I think we're at a moment of um great expectancy, but it's also gonna be coupled with disruption. And what I mean by that is we're at a moment where um the bigger are gonna get bigger. And I think here's my point. If you are a church in America and healthy and organized, gotta be both. If you're healthy and organized, you're gonna grow. If you're not healthy and organized, or organized and not healthy, or not healthy at all, not organized, you're probably gonna close within five years. Yeah. The the normative, you know, modern American now does not give you the forgiveness to not be healthy organized anymore. Yeah. So I'm not going to church because mama went. I'm going to church to see if Jesus can help me. Right. So like it's a moment where megas that know how to show up well in those spaces are going to continue to see more and more fruit. Yeah in smaller churches or not. But if you're healthy and organized, you're going to you're going to grow. So I think that's the immediate future over the next five years. That's good. I think um the boomers are retiring. Right. So I think um I think in the next year and a half, 15,000 pastors will retire. Oh, wow. Um and start doing something else or whatever, right? And so you're going to see a lot of spaces and buildings that I think the question will be what are we going to do with these spaces? And I think there's going to be more openness for smaller churches to allow healthy and organized churches to either have them or so. I think that's the thing. But I think on the other side of the moment that if the Lord tarries, whatever's about to happen in the next 10, 12, 15 years, on the other side of that, I think there'll be a great fracturing. I think there'll be a dissemination into small knit, I need to be known communities as the onset of AI. Um proliferation of, you know, technology that becomes um more humanoid. No, you know what I mean? Where transcendence and meaningful eye contact with the human is going to be more important. I think we're going to see a proliferation of very, very small um Christian churches. Um, I think it's going to look a lot more like the New Testament because transcendence will be the new um currency in the body of Christ, if you ask me. Yeah. So what do I know? We'll see.

SPEAKER_04:

I like that.

SPEAKER_01:

That's off that's off subject.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. No, I was kind of thinking, I know, I didn't expect for it to go there, but I I love that. That sounded dark. Well, no, I mean, like, I think like you know, obviously there's more options, more opportunities, there's more like things are more, like you said, fragmented. Yeah. And so that's going to require a lot more intentionality uh and and in regards to, like you said, organization or being organized and being healthy. Yes. But I think it'll be mega with regards to probably impact and then micro with regards to presence, right? That's right. So it's just more of an ideology or a mindset, not necessarily the expression can look different because that can happen in both contexts. Right. So it's just who does that well. I think that's absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be fun to see, won't it? Yep, absolutely. We shall see. So as always, we hope our conversations are engaging and helpful. Any books, podcasts, resources you'd like to point people to?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Uh Buddy Eric Geiger and the The Sage, Tom Rayner, so simple church. Return to we've used that a lot in this book, Returning to God's Process for Making Disciples. Um, Tom Raynor's got another one called I Am a Church Member: Discovering the Attitude That Makes the Difference. Yeah. Mark Sayers is um always a great thought leader. Uh, we read this book on staff called Disappearing Church from Cultural Relevance to Gospel Resilience. I think that's a must-read, actually, if you're doing church today. Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. I think uh I saw what Tim Keller does one called Center Church, where he talks about it's kind of you know a gospel centered ministry in the city. And then um, you know, there's always the Andy Stanley does a deep and wide one, which I think actually has a really good, broad, you know, uh perspective on some of this stuff. And then uh a podcast too. We got a lot of this from uh Joby Martin's thing. Must listen. Yep, he did a really good thing on uh build healthy churches.

SPEAKER_01:

So yep, Joby's great. Yep. Anything else? We don't care about a packed church, small or great, we care about a packed heaven. There you go. That's all that matters.

SPEAKER_04:

Amen. Well, there you have it, guys. Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Other Six Days podcast. Be sure to hit that subscribe, follow, share, and like, spread the word, and as always, take what you've heard and turn it into something you can do to further the gospel and the world around you. Until next time.

SPEAKER_01:

Peace.