The Other 6 Days

Rows To Circles | The Other 6 Days | Episode 74

• Southwest Church • Season 4 • Episode 74

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We live in the most connected generation in history… and yet, many feel more isolated than ever.

In this episode, CJ sits down with Wellspring’s new Small Groups Pastor, Brad Whitelaw, to talk about God’s design for gathering—and why real community is not optional for a flourishing life of faith.

From friendships to spiritual growth, from loneliness to belonging, this conversation unpacks how circles—not just rows—change everything.

If you’ve ever felt disconnected, stuck, or unsure how to take your next step, this episode will challenge and encourage you to lean in, get connected, and experience the kind of life God designed you for.

Find your people... join a Small Group today! Visit https://groups.thewellspring.church for more information.

For more information or to join the conversation, head over to https://southwestchurch.com/theother6days or email us at theother6days@southwestchurch.com

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Welcome And Why Community Matters

SPEAKER_03

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Other Six Days podcast, where we talk about life outside of Sundays and what it means to live from our gatherings and not just for them. I'm your host, CJ McFadden, and joining me on this episode is our brand new small groups pastor, Brad Whitelaw. Brad is here to help share some insights on an often overlooked but essential part of Following Jesus community. It's our hope that this conversation will reveal how much better life can be when it's lived together. Brad, welcome to the podcast. Hey, thanks for having me. It's good to be here. So excited to have you on. So, Brad, uh, it was awesome because I probably asked Brad uh with short notice if he would come on. And so uh I'm super excited to spend some time here with you today.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm excited too. This will be good.

SPEAKER_03

Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_01

Would you tell me last night? Yeah, exactly.

Cliche Or Truth Small Groups Edition

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, thanks for being charitable. I give you like three days' notice. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so Brad, we like to start off with a little game. Um, how about cliche or truth but small group edition? What do you think? Sounds good. All right. I know you've heard a bunch of these, so here we go. Uh we're better together.

SPEAKER_01

That is cliche. Okay. Um unless it's put into practice. There you go. It's we hear it all the time. I think we overhear it. Yep. Um, but when we put it into practice, I mean, I think it holds not just the truth, it holds a biblical truth. Yeah. I think. Yeah, absolutely. That we that we need to yeah, just to remind ourselves with. So hopefully it doesn't become a cliche and just uh like a turning record over and over again.

SPEAKER_03

Totally. Yeah, it's meant to be kind of a sticky statement, right? Yeah. Like more so like uh gospel truth, but and then we're like, oh yeah, we are better together. Yeah, yeah. I better live it that way. Yeah, yeah. Cool. Uh if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. I haven't heard this one actually. Really? Yeah, I haven't heard that one. But uh, I think it's very true. I think sometimes we try to go at it alone. Yeah. And we we try to think, hey, that's the best way to do it to get there to the destination as quick as possible. But I think when we do it with friends or when we do it in community, yeah, that's the best way uh for us to go. Let me say it like this to go the distance in the best way. Yeah. Um yeah. In one sense, let me say it this way too, is is um every every sports team has a coach, right? Yeah. And and you're doing that with someone else. Yeah. So if you're gonna go the distance, it's good to have a coach walk that with you and and and coach you through that. So yeah. And to me, small if we're talking about small groups, small groups is like that. It's a it's a team, yeah, team event.

SPEAKER_03

Team endeavor. Oh, I love that. No, so true. I have the tendency for myself to want to go fast, so I have to remember, oh no, we're trying to go far, so I need to go with people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I need to go team. Um uh alone we can do so little, together we can do so much.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, alone we can do that's that's truth. Yeah. Alone we can do little. Yeah. And we can do a lot with with to be together. Yeah, that's absolutely truth. Yeah, truth for sure.

SPEAKER_03

So much more uh like horsepower and uh carrying capacity, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh this one, I like this one. Find your people.

SPEAKER_01

Let's say it's it's a half truth. Okay. Um if you don't find people, yeah, you put yourself in a place where I'm gonna say it like this, where you can where people can find you. Oh, that's good. Right? Yeah. Like so um a lot of times we we yeah, we get intimidated and we need to put ourselves in a place where people can actually see us and find us in order to enter into community. So I think I think that's I think it's a half-truth. Um yeah, we can find our people, but it's good for people to put up uh have ourselves be put into position where people can find us.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, actually, yeah, that's true. Yeah, you have to put yourself out there for people to find you, but I mean you have to put yourself out there. So yeah, yeah. No, I like that. Um okay, what about you get out what you put in? That that is uh that's truth. Yeah, yeah, definitely truth. Yeah, it's not something you watch, like you have to work it, like being in community, right? Like you have to put the work in. Yeah. I actually use that one anytime like I get into a gr a group, I'm like, I always feel like that's like my solid statement. I'm like, hey guys, you're only gonna get out what you put in. Yeah. And so I'm glad you said truth.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, it's the same as it's the same as uh a marriage, right? You you don't go into marriage and go, hey, I'm I'm not gonna or I'm gonna do little or I'm not gonna do anything. Yeah. And expect a good marriage. I don't think you go into life, you know, finding a community going, hey, yeah, I I'm just gonna sit and receive. I think we have to put some work into it as well. 100%.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, bare minimum, huh? Uh real life happens in circles, not rows. That is absolutely true. Why?

SPEAKER_01

Because that's our motto here at Wellspring, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, this is the title of the podcast.

SPEAKER_01

I don't think I'm allowed to say cliche. I mean, yeah, I I hope that it doesn't become cliche that we keep on saying it over and over that we hear it and go, no, no, no. Yeah, I think it's something that we need to remind ourselves. Yeah, rows are important, exactly, but circles are where I think real discipleship takes place.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we don't want to, and I always I love this, and that's part of the conversation today is I don't want to minimize the rows, yeah, but like we want to emphasize the circles for sure because that's where real life and transformation happens at. Yeah, like you know, and in a context of relationship. Yeah. So yeah, for sure. Super cool. Um, what about people need people? That's simple. Yeah. Just a simple simple but true. Simple, true.

SPEAKER_01

Simple but true. You're like, uh, next. I could not imagine myself going through life without people. Okay. So people absolutely need people.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah. It would be very lonely. I love that. Uh, what about um this one's funny? Groups are therapy but free. That is good.

SPEAKER_01

Hey, but somebody, yeah, groups are groups are therapy, therapy, but free. But free. Is it true? Well, it's uh it's a cliche. Okay. Have you ever had that friend that thinks that they're a counselor or they're a therapist? Oh, when I'm trying to do it. And you're sitting there going, uh, even I know that that's not good advice, right? So it's cliche. Yeah. I'm that friend.

SPEAKER_03

That's funny. Uh belonging isn't found, it's built. Oh, that's truth. Yeah. Yeah, that's truth.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Commitment, presence, all that stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It goes back to the other one. You got you put in what you get out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. Um I can get this one's kind of for me. I threw this one in selfishly. I can get everything I need online.

SPEAKER_01

That yeah. No. No, that's not true. That's not true. Okay. I think, yeah, I mean, I um you can't find true community online. Yeah. I know people try to. Yeah. I uh you just can't.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So you can make a connection, I think, digitally. So I think there's like a it's a front door I look at. Yeah. Like we call it like a people call it like a digital foyer or the lobby. Yeah. That's where people first go. So you can can and you can build, you can build a connection, but you can't you can't be transformed relationally, I think, like in a deep and profound way.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. Like I've got I've got a buddy back in South Carolina who will message me. Yeah. Uh still use Facebook. Is that my age? Is that what is it, right? But he messaged me on Facebook and there's that connection there, right? That that he can or not message. He he gives me devotionals on there. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it pours into my life through through messages. It's good, but it can't be the only connection.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's got to go deeper than that. I noticed that with some of our online um and online environments, online experiences and stuff is that people always want they they yearn to go deeper. Yeah. So and that can't be all. Even if they've been on it for a while and they're faithful, they're like, hey, I need to find a local expression where I can get connected with like real flesh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Um, community isn't an event, it's an environment.

SPEAKER_01

Uh that's uh truth. Yeah. There's yeah, yeah, it's definitely true. I mean, even think about real life. You can go to an event and it's over, you walk away. Oh, yeah. But when you go with friends, I mean that that event actually comes comes to life, in my in my opinion. Yeah. And yeah, it community is is way deeper than an event. To me, an event is a one-time thing.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Um, but community is ongoing. You we need ongoing community and circle of friends there.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. Um you you don't need more content, you need more people. That's truth, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Information informs, but yeah, but people transform.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, that's good. Um and this is I love this one. Uh I'll get in a group when life slows down. Yeah, right. You know that to not be true.

SPEAKER_01

You'll never get into a group then, right? Yeah, that's true. As soon as life slows down, you know, you're like, uh, people use that as an excuse. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. So if that's you, don't use that as an excuse.

SPEAKER_03

Don't use that. Yeah. I know. We uh we'll talk about it more. And I it's another I use a lot of these cliches and I use a lot of cliches for it, but they're memorable, they're memorable for a reason, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

Brad’s Story And Calling To Groups

SPEAKER_03

But um you uh you can't make time, you have to take time. So it's like this idea that you're like trying to like uh because they'll never find it, right? Yeah. So you have to steal it from somewhere. So it has to be it's a value statement of whether it's important or not. Exactly, yeah. So and that goes the for everything else in our lives, right? Yeah, yeah. So um, so most of those, I think most of those were cliches, right? Most yeah. Yep. Yep. Well, thanks for playing the game. I appreciate it. Well, they stick around for a reason though. So um so Brad, tell us a little bit about who you are, maybe some background, how you became the small group's pastor here at Wellspring Church.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I'm uh I'm married to my wonderful bride uh for 25 years. Wow. We got married in 2001, which helps because you just take a year off of what the year is how long we've been there. That's easy, man. That was smart. Pro move. Um so we yeah, we've been married for 25 years. We've got two kids. One is 19, living in Virginia. She's going to university out there, Shenandoah or yeah, Shenandoah Conservatory.

SPEAKER_04

Nice.

SPEAKER_01

Uh in Winchester, Virginia. Wow. Um, it's she's a second-year university student there. Yeah. We have a son who's 13, just picked up playing hockey, which is his dream, gave up baseball, now playing hockey, uh, scored last night in his game. So shout out to him. Um, we I was born in Toronto, Canada, and lived lived in around the Toronto area, and um, but went to Bible college in Saskatchewan, which is like in the middle of Canada, really in the middle of nowhere. Yeah um and it was just I just become a Christian and I said, hey, um, let's dedicate one year to learning as much as I can about my faith. And spent one year there, met my wife Courtney there, and that one year turned into four years, got my bachelor's degree in youth ministry. Yeah, I wanted to help um kids like me, students like me, who were far from God, yeah, struggling with faith, and I wanted to come alongside of them. So I was a youth pastor, family pastor, young adult pastor for about 17, probably I have to do the math on it, but 16, 17 years, and then moved to Columbia, South Carolina, where I got my master's degree in biblical exposition. Fancy, fancy term just to say study, okay, studying and teaching the Bible. Okay. It's a$10 way to say that. Um, but then we stayed there for 12 years. We we uh planted a church um with uh a buddy of mine, and we planted that church or replanted the church and stayed there for 12 years and and two years ago felt God calling us on. So we we left there with no jobs and came to the desert. Oh wow. Um yeah, with nothing. And we're like, okay, God, we're gonna follow you. And sometimes he asked you to do that without all the details. And so we we came to the desert. Courtney quickly found a job um at Family Jewish Services. She was there for I can't remember how long, and then she got uh asked to come on staff at King's School Um in Palm Springs, and I got I got a job at the airport. Something totally different from being a pastor. What a change, what a change. But it was so much fun. Yeah, and uh they started calling me Pastor Brad at the airport, so I guess I wasn't out of the pastoral role there, but it was it was a lot of fun. And then uh funny story, so I kept on looking for um a ministry job or a job, right? Because I couldn't sustain uh you know taking care of a family on that. It was a minimum wage job and part-time job. Oh, so you couldn't you couldn't sustain that, you can make it into a part uh full-time job, but anyways, kept on looking for a new job and wellspring kept on coming up, yeah. And and we just said, okay, God, is this is this where you're sending us? Yeah. We prayed about it and and uh applied for it, talked to Chris, um, the discipleship pastor, talked to you guys, and it was just like, yeah, God was sending us here to to go after small groups. Small groups has been a big instrumental thing in my life and something I've been passionate about. And um so when that when that title thing came up, I'm like, count me in, uh uh, let's go after this. Yeah. So oh, I love that. I don't know if that yeah, weaves it all in, but that's that's the story of how I got here.

SPEAKER_03

No, that's perfect. Like you said, that you know, obviously, like small groups and community and all that has played like a big uh part in your life personally. Um, like, like what was the time, like an example of like when you were like, man, dude, like the somebody showed up for me, or this is when I like I realized I actually needed people, you know, like doing you said you could never imagine doing not doing life with other people. Yeah, like what does that look like? Something that's super memorable for you.

SPEAKER_01

The very first time I was in a small group, and then I like you said I needed someone was when I became a Christian. I was 18 years old, um, left a very dark life, um, got arrested when I was 15, um, was just anti-God, um, even though I grew up in a rich Christian heritage. Yeah. Um, and finally God grabbed hold of my heart when I was 18 and made a radical change, but I was still trying to figure out life as a Christian. Yeah. Right. And I had some of the vices that I still had um when I was not walking with the Lord, and I had a small group, our youth ministry actually used small groups in their youth ministry. This is like yeah, how many years ago, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, back in the day.

SPEAKER_01

And uh, and it was there. I had a youth group um leader who was my sorry, my small group leader who just poured into my life. And that's the first time I I was like, Man, I need someone in my life to pour into me to speak into my life because I can't do life alone.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So yeah, it's kind of like where you start to figure out from a relational way that this is kind of how discipleship works, and like you know, the Paul, Timothy, and Barnabas kind of thing, someone ahead of you, someone behind you, all that kind of stuff, right?

SPEAKER_01

And what's cool about that small group is that it was is with other high school students. And so we we would share all of our struggles or we would we would pray for one another, and it was a cool community um for me as a new Christian to step into. Yeah. So it was very helpful in the formation of like my spiritual formation. Oh, for sure. As a young guy.

SPEAKER_03

Well, when you're young too, as a young guy and you're coming out of that and into this, you're like, that's a pretty good, to be honest, like it's a pretty good bridge. You're like, I I could do this, yeah. You know, because like it can be a little overwhelming sometimes just to step onto like Rose on a Sunday. Yeah, yeah. You know, be like, this is my life. Yeah, exactly. Like, but groups, affinity stuff, things with other guys, you know, you're like, yeah, they're kind of like me. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

That's doable, right? When I got married too, I'm like, man, I need I need other married men around me. Yes, yeah. Um, and so I just it it's interesting. And then when we had kids, I'm like, man, I need other, yeah, other men around me who have had kids who are in the same life stage as me. So we've always been um we've always been in groups of of different age brackets. And and to me, that's been so helpful um in the for again the formation of who I am as a man in my spiritual formation.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So every stage of life, I'm like, I need to find people who I can do life with older than me, younger with me, and at the same age as me.

SPEAKER_03

Dude, I love that you hit on the intergenerational like component because like I think like I was kind of leaning into the like, hey, we're we're all the same, so let's get in a group together. But the biggest benefit to me was to be in group with older people, with older guys. That's where a lot of my relationships were truly like who a lot of who I am was forged in that. Yeah. Because those guys were able to pour and speak into my life for things that I couldn't see yet.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And they gave me insight, and they also helped me to see something that I honestly probably would have never seen. Yeah. And a value in an intergenerational exchange that wouldn't have happened if it had I stayed in my little microcosm of younger, you know, just like, hey, let's hang out and play basketball together. Not that that's bad, but you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And they can push you by because they've they've walked that that stage out before. Yeah. And they can look and go, hey, your parenting is a little bit off. Yeah.

A Bible Wide Case For Community

SPEAKER_03

Let me show you how that plays out a little bit. Ooh, yeah, I'm being a little heavy-handed. Yeah. Or whatever. So yeah. It's been always helpful for me. And in that. That's so good. Oh, that's a great insight. Man, we didn't even get going yet. We're already getting some like good tidbits. So thank you. There we go. Yeah. Well, there you have it on another. No, I'm just kidding. Uh so let's talk a little bit about the theology of gathering. Uh, just a fancy way of introduction. That's my ten dollar word for introducing what the Bible has to say about this idea of community. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. If you if you look through the Bible, right from Genesis chapter one, yeah. And this is a cliche that everyone, um, or not everyone, but a lot of people use, we were created in community for community. Yes. Right. And in the Trinity was present, obviously, at creation of the world, but not also man. But we were also uh we were created for that vertical community, but also horizontal. So we were created in community for community. That's right from uh even Genesis chapter two, when God uh creates man, he's like, wait a minute, it's not good for me to be alone. Yeah, it's not good for you to be alone. You need to be in community, right? Yeah, um, and so from there, God, you know, God, let's just take take Moses and the Israelites. Yeah, right. God chose a community to be a blessing to other communities and to now they kind of messed up along the way, but God's been gracious and and used a community to to shape um evangelism or reaching the nations. Yeah. Um, you go, let's go into the New Testament, Jesus had a community around him, the 12 disciples. Yeah, totally. Right. And if anyone who didn't need a community would be Jesus, right? But he chose 12 disciples to be in community with him. Wow. Um to so he he models that for us. Yeah, it's good to be in a small group, but it's good to be in community. With that, you you look in Acts, Acts chapter two, right? It talks about in uh um uh how we the Holy Spirit came and how we were to do what is it in 42 47? Yeah, um, yeah, how we're to sell our possessions, share it with one another. We're supposed to pour into one another like that. So even in Acts is the formation of the early church, we s we see that um taking place. Um well, going back to the old testament, like Ecclesiastes, um, two are better than one. Yeah, I as iron sharpens iron. And you could you could it's all throughout scripture.

SPEAKER_03

It's all throughout scripture.

SPEAKER_01

You can't go, you can't stand on this side and go, no, I'm I can't I have to do life by myself. The Bible doesn't mend itself or lend itself rather to doing this Christian walk all by ourselves. Yeah. Um all the one another's yeah in the New Testament is all about in community. Yeah, you can't live those out in isolation, yeah. To be to follow scripture and obeying those one another, you have to live in community. Yeah. Um man. The gifts of the spirit that says, Hey, um, we're one member of many uh of of a bigger body, yeah, right? Yeah, we're all being given gifts. Why to for the edification of the whole body, yeah. Um and he right, and then let's go to Revelation chapter seven, where it says, and the multitudes will be there. I'm I'm paraphrasing, yeah. But the multitudes will be there to glorify God. Who who's the multitude? It's a community of people. So from Genesis right to Revelation, you're you're you get this woven thread through the whole Bible that we were meant to do life in community.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, that's so good. Man, when you said that about the 12 disciples, I mean that's uh that's an obvious one, but I was thinking like Jesus' entire ministry from the very beginning to the very end was done to model like you know, one another with each other, and then for others, yeah, in light of the great commission and what we're called to go and make disciples of all nations in Matthew. Like everything that he did from creation beginning through the all of scripture and Jesus' modeled ministry is other centric. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

The whole thing.

SPEAKER_03

The whole that's a good theology of gathering right there. I like that. Wow. Um, so I mean, practically then, like, why would you say, I mean, what are some maybe some handles or some stuff that you might be able to put in there for like why it's such a big deal to God about like why is he modeling this for us? Like, what do you what do you think that that is? Like, what is it, what does it do for us? What does it do for others? What does it do? You know, like what is it?

SPEAKER_01

Well, uh, yeah, I think going back to that, he he is community, right? The Trinity. Yeah. Um, and so he he's a relational guy. Mm-hmm. Guy. He's a relational guy. He um he's a relational God right um right from the start of of his description of himself. Yes, and so um it's a big deal to God because I mean he is relational, yeah. Um right right from the start um in his relationship with Adam. Yeah. Um and so right from the start, he has on this desire for man to be in relationship with him. And then we're supposed to model that relationship with with others. And so again, we see it all through scripture, how we are supposed to model that relationship. It's a big deal. I th we we get a s let me say it this way, we get a sense of how big a deal it is when we do what we just did and go through scripture and see all the relational ties uh in the gathering of of his church and how discipleship doesn't happen um in isolation but in community. And um so I yeah, I to live out the one another's you have to be in community to be able to live that out. And so I I think it's a yeah, I think we'd be silly to say that community is not a big deal for to God and and he's created us to live that out. Yeah.

Mutual Edification And Spiritual Gifts

SPEAKER_03

You need you need an another to love one another, like uh to love another. Yeah. Me, myself, and I yeah, just exactly. Oh man. Um you um you also said you had mentioned too before we were talking before a little bit about this, but you said uh about like this idea of mutual edification. Um, I don't know, elaborate on that a little bit. Like you had mentioned too, like that there's something to be had in that and like the way that because obviously we're image bearers of God and he created us in his image, um, in his likeness, and to be in relationship with us. But through that, as we do, as we um as we go and love others and kind of do that one another thing, I was just thinking of that, like an encouragement, this mutual edification, like and building each other up. Like, I don't know, is there anything there?

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Um well, I I can't see all the faults in myself. And so someone else can can lean in and go, hey man, I don't you may not know this this about yourself, um, but they can they can teach me some of my faults or even hey, like uh like a compliment. Hey, you're doing that well. I was just sitting with a guy upstairs uh earlier this morning. He was facilitating a small group table um at the men's event, and he was facilitating well, like like amazingly well. And after after we're done, I just walked up to him and said, Hey man, you're really good at facilitating questions. He might not have known how good he was unless he had someone kind of edifying him or letting him in on that. Another thing of saying that I have is a true friend, a true friend doesn't tell us what I want to hear, but what I need to hear. Yeah. And so that edification right there is going, Hey, um, I need friends to come around inside of me uh beside me and go, hey, this is what you need to hear. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna show up and just tell you what you want to hear. I'm gonna actually push you a little bit. And so I think spiritual growth happens when we when we edify each other. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. So and and even too, let me let me say this with the spiritual gifts, they they're given to edify one another, right? And so um let's I have the spiritual gift of encouragement to come alongside of you and to encourage you. Uh you know, it's me exercising that spiritual gift and you receiving that spiritual gift from me. Um, and then yeah, the gift of help. So the gift all those are given for the edification of the church.

SPEAKER_03

So oh man, you nailed it. That edification piece and the building up of each other is literally meant it's others, it's it's other centric. Like it wasn't necessary, it primarily was not built for ourselves, like to build ourselves up. Like, nowhere do you see through scripture that guy continually says, like, build yourself up. Yeah, he's constantly pointing to others. So we're given the gifts so that we can give them away. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's a good way to say it. We're given the gifts. Let's say it again.

Why People Avoid Groups

SPEAKER_03

We're given the gifts so that we can give them away. Yeah, like it's supposed to be done in and through us, right? That's how our whole lives are lived. And in that, we're fulfilled, and God meets us and all of the things. I think there's like, you know, we can get into all the psychology of it, but there's like that scarcity mindset that like it's just me and God in a personal relationship, and I get and receive, and that's good. Yeah. And he's like, No, in light of what I've done for you, like I'm calling and telling you like you were created to go and do that for others. Yeah, just as I came and did for you, now you go and do. Yeah. And if we don't figure that out, I think we miss a huge, huge piece of the puzzle there. Yeah, you know, of of life and the fullness of life, yeah, you know, in Christ. So yeah, right? That's good. Yeah. I don't know. I just was going off on a wild tangent there. So you inspired me. I appreciate it. You did you you edified me, and then I felt like I needed to share. So that's cool. Uh hey, so well, you know, there's barriers like um to all this stuff. What do you think are some of the reasons that keep people from joining groups, like getting involved in community?

SPEAKER_01

Well, we talked on one is is busyness. I don't have time, I don't have time for that. Um, and I think we'll always feel like we're too busy. Um but we can't use that as an excuse to not get in community. I think um, yeah, I mean, we when you have kids, right? I mean, it's again the calendar thing. Oh, I'm busy here, here, and here. But I think we need to put our priorities where what in what's important. Yeah. And I I would say, not just because I'm a small group pastor, I would say community is utmost important for us. Yeah. Um, and so we can't let our calendars or um our busyness get in the way of that. Yeah. Uh I think some people um feel may feel like they're it feels awkward to be in a group and um they don't want to feel vulnerable. Yeah. You know what? Um for me, I'll just speak on myself. Like I can speak in front of thousands. Yeah, I can be okay doing that. Put me in a small room, and I get I get a little bit more, I feel that vulnerability, right? Because you can ask me questions, you can lean in and push, push me on certain things. Uh, and I think some people are afraid of that. I think we need to embrace that in our lives. So I think people are afraid of being vulnerable. Being known, yeah. Yeah, being known. Yeah, and if you ask me a question where I'm gonna have to reveal something about myself, yeah, I don't know if I'm ready for that. But it's very important and helpful, I think, again, in our lives if we do that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I think sometimes people are just weirded, and this is gonna sound weird, but just um Christian ease stuff. We make it, we make it maybe, I don't know. There's a there's some weird Christians out there, and uh and and they're like, I don't know if I want to be in a um a group. Um yeah, just overly, you know, I don't I don't I don't I don't even know how to explain this, but um I've been in some groups where it's just like they have the pad answer. Oh um, they use Christian ease cliches, yeah. And it's just like okay, let's get past that and let's like just pour into my life on one-on-one. Yeah. Um and and all that. So I think that's some of it and and negative past experiences, I think is another one.

SPEAKER_02

That's a big one.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. We have we had a past experience in a small group that didn't go so well. Didn't go so well, so I'm never doing that again. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Or that was just too weird or awkward, or yeah. Well, it has all of the recipe of all those things in it potentially. Yeah. Well, it's probably for one of those reasons. Yeah. Well, too, like uh the past, like having a past experience with it that can be like uh, you know, that something awkward or weird happened, I think like is definitely like a turnoff. But I think like also too, like people think that these are lifetime covenants too, like in small groups. Like people look, they have like uh probably stigmas or like misunderstandings about what a small group entails. Like you're like, hey, you you can go like well, I mean, it's clear we use this as a cliche, but find your people. Yeah, you have to put yourself out there in order to be, you have to engage with people in order to find people. Yeah, so you do you there's some vulnerability, right? Like we have to, you have to give of yourself in some way to that group and like make yourself vulnerable, which leaves you open to potential hurt or like hey, this is weird, it's awkward and I don't really like it. Um, but I think like that's where you that's where God grows you a lot. That's where like he shows up. Like, and honestly, most of the times in that, I'm the king of awkwardness. And I'm I I think I forget who said maybe Michael Jr. said this, and he said, like, you know, if if you're looking around at like who the awkward Christian is and you can't find one, you're it, you know, or something like that. Yeah, like I'm it. And so, but what I found is in that is that God was growing me and stretching me, and in it, he ends up doing something like usually awesome that I didn't even see. And that was like, Yeah, someone else shows me grace through that awkwardness, or I should extend them grace. Um, we develop a relationship, and then you get underneath that kind of superficial stuff, and you get to know somebody, and you're like, Man, I would have never known you in that way had I not engaged in this. Yeah. So kind of breaking through the awkwardness a little bit to get to know somebody and saying, Man, like deep down, like, dude, you're you have so much value and worth, and you do anyway, intrinsically, but like, you know, I get to see that on display. Yeah, and you never get to see that if you don't step out. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And you don't get to see that on a on a Sunday morning. No, yeah, you can't when you're sitting in rows and you're looking at the back uh of someone's head, right?

SPEAKER_03

That's a cool guy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and we have that what 30 seconds of shaking hands, welcome, which is very important, yeah. Um, but you don't you don't get that that sense of like accountability or hey, yeah, um pour into your into your life just by sitting in rows and and looking at someone, yeah, someone's head in front of you, right? Yeah. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I'm finding out about like, you know, uh life, like wayward kids, or you know, like really getting into like deeper stuff and being like, oh dude, I'm going through something similar that you you know and you start to make those connections, yeah. You can't have that on a I mean typically you you don't get that there. Yeah. Like so that's why we always push people deeper from Sundays.

Messy Community And Funny Real Stories

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Let me take this in a whole different direction for a second. I like we had a guy in uh in in one of our small groups and he was allergic to cats, and we had a cat and we didn't know that he was allergic to cats. Yeah. And uh so he comes over to our house. This is one of the first interactions that he has with us. And so he he comes over and uh and he starts sneezing, right? And we're like, okay, he's I don't know, maybe he's got allergies or something like that, and he starts scratching his skin, and then we see splotches develop on his neck, and then his voice starts to get raspy, and we're like, Mike, are you are you okay? He's like, Yeah, yeah, I'm just allergic to cats. And the cat has been roaming around the room and on all the rubbing on him. And we're like, why didn't you tell us we would have put the cat away? And he's like, Well, I didn't want it to interrupt um the the flow of the night, and I I enjoy coming to this small group, or or I've I've had so much value in small groups that I don't want that to be the reason I don't come. Wow, and uh it just reminded me, you know, just that maybe the sacrifice we need to make in order to come. Now we put the cat away after everything you reciprocated, yeah. Yeah, we actually moved it to someone else's house because he was too much valuable to us then to go, hey, keep on coming to our house and all that. So we moved it to someone else's house who who didn't mind hosting. Yeah. So, anyways, man, that's great. Yeah, don't ever let a cat get in the way.

SPEAKER_03

No. When I said barrier, man, you that was like he did not let that be a barrier. Like, oh wow, I'm gonna break out in hives, but I'm coming to this group. Yeah, that's commitment. Yeah, that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01

I tell another funny show. Yeah, go for it, dude. So we uh we were in we were in a small group, and this was when Hayden, our son, was I don't know, he was three or four years old, and uh he was going to the bathroom. We're in the living room, and the bathroom was right off the living room. And and uh is the back end. I don't even know if I'm allowed to say this on the podcast, but he he uh he would always ask for help to to wipe his bum, right? Yeah, and so he was he went to the bathroom and he comes or opens the door, he comes over, bends over, and he says, Hey mom, can you wipe my bum? And we're all looking at this, and he's like, Yeah, spread spread eagle over there, and we all laugh, but that that's sometimes um doing community with the other each other is messy. Oh, yeah, right? And that's not yeah, it is in that sense it is, and uh yeah, I don't use that story to to intro into that, but it sometimes it is messy, yeah, and you do life together in the midst of all that mess. Yeah um and we've always done let me see let me see, and let since we had kids, we've always done small group with kids. Our kids have always been our small groups, okay. And in that, it's been messy, yeah. But out of that, um, they've been able to see men praying with men, women praying with women, women and men praying together as a community, men like us reading the Bible, valuing the word of God together. And uh yeah, and I could tell stories of how that that being modeled to them has now transitioned into their own lives. Um, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That's a big deal. No, that's awesome. I love I love that you shared that because that's like I think like that hits on uh there's like certain stages and seasons of life that you go through that that's like extremely valuable. And I think like especially for your kids seeing that played out, that was one of the biggest ones for me is that you can talk about it to your kids all the time, but once they see you live it out, like we always say don't talk about it, be about it. Yeah, then they actually say, Oh, you put this into practice. This isn't just something that you know intellectually, it's something that you do. Yeah, and so that speaks that speaks the most uh to your kids. Yeah. Um, because otherwise it's just something like you talk about on a Sunday that you don't live out during the week. Yeah. I mean, but now and then also that's the reality of life, too, is practicality, like practically you that's real life together. It like there's messy seasons, there's weird stuff, there's awkwardness. There, that's how our lives work. Yeah, like Ricky always says, there's not a straight line, it's zigzaggy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03

Like we constantly are like, you know, kind of trying to figure out how to navigate all those things and people to navigate it with you. You're like, thank you for showing up when it was weird, thank you for showing up when it was hard, thank you for being there. And I do I'm doing the same for you. Yeah, that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, we've gone through different things in our life where again, I wouldn't be where I am now, or I wouldn't be the man that I am. Our marriage wouldn't be where our marriage is now without other people around us, our small group around us pouring into us and and all that. Yeah. So yeah, it's messy, but it's beautiful.

Sermons In Rows Practiced In Circles

SPEAKER_03

But it's worth it. Yeah, it's worth it. Man, well, I was gonna hit we called the we're calling the podcast circles, you know, uh moving from circles to rows, or I haven't figured it out yet, but circles are greater than rows, whatever. They'll they'll know when they hear it. But um, and if you've been around the church for a while, you've heard that circles are better than rows. So what like, and we kind of mentioned it, but what are we saying re really when we say that?

SPEAKER_01

I love that cliche that we use, yeah. Um, because it is truth. Um, moving people from rows. I mean, especially at a church this size, right? We um it's it's hard to know um the people around you on a Sunday morning, right? If you just show up and you're sitting in rows, um it's good. Um we're glad you're here on Sunday. Uh hopefully you're taking something away into your week from the the the Sunday gathering, whether it be a scripture reading, a song that we sing, uh the message that we hear. Um, but to get dive into the nitty gritty of applying that truth into our lives, I think it happens better in circles. So it's good to sit in rows, but it can't just stay in rows. It's it's good to get in circles with other people in a in a living room. Uh, we have one small group meeting in a library, and I think that's beautiful in one of those community rooms in a library. And I think that that's beautiful. Um, and they're talking about the Sunday sermon. Yeah. And diving back or into back into that Sunday sermon. And and how do I apply this to my life? Or hey, he touched on this verse. Like, let's dive more into that verse. And and and so when well, I think what we mean by rows, um, let's get out of rows and into circles, or what how do we say it here?

SPEAKER_03

Well, I mean, we we it's just kind of cliche, so it just kind of floats around. But yeah, it's I think it it's not really that rows are greater than circles, they're just more of the cat, they're catalyst, like rows are catalysts into circles, right? They're like the they're the vehicle to get you into circles.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Um I think I think in the church world, we need rows in order to, like you said, in order to funnel into circles. Yeah. Especially the way we do small groups here. Most of our small groups are sermon-based, or we're trying to move all of our small groups to sermon-based. Yeah. Um, and we we say it here too, is is it's like the lecture lab. Yeah. Um, kind of that's per analogy. So you you sit through the lecture, and I hate describing Sunday morning or the sermon like a lecture because the sermon is not a lecture. Um, but I think it goes with the concept that we're trying to go after, is and then you and and you go into the lab and you get into the nitty-gritty apply that and what better place to apply that with other people, right? And people hear different things um on a Sunday morning and to be able to now go into rows or uh circles and and hear, okay, this is how God showed up and and used that phrase or that you know, that point in the sermon. Yeah. And oh, I never thought of that. And we get to now, you know, dive deeper into what was preached on.

SPEAKER_03

That's so good. You had to like nuance your understanding of it. And now it that's where it goes from information to transformation. Like now, and man, you even said it too. It goes from information to application from uh like uh lecture to lab. Yeah, because like you're just taking it because it's it's one way, right? It's like a monologue kind of you're hearing, you're all you can do is receive outside of just saying, like, amen, that was a great point, but you're just taking it in. And now the practical application of that in a multifaceted approach is through the group. So, like, so if you do that, you you almost you have to get into circles in order to live that out, yeah. Yeah, to some degree, right?

SPEAKER_01

Another way I think to think of it too is is the whole head, heart, hands, feet analogy. Yeah, right. So you so I'm listening on a Sunday, that's my head, it's got filters through my heart to my hands, and then to my feet to going and and maybe sharing that with someone else. Not maybe, but sharing that with someone else. Yeah. Um, and so when we sit in rows, it could be just all head knowledge. Yeah. Um, and and when we get into circles, we we hear um the application take place in our lives and other people's lives, and it can now we can encourage each other now to to to apply it and then get on the move and go do it. So head, heart, hands, feet.

The Vision For Groups Across The Valley

SPEAKER_03

Man, as you were saying that, I was thinking, I was like, oh, maybe that's what, you know, sitting, sitting in those rows, you know, and it says, you know, through through scripture, knowledge puffs up. Uh so you're sitting, you know, gaining that knowledge, but if you don't do anything with it, like, you know, you just keep puffing up and thinking, like, hey, I know this pretty good. I'm getting pretty good at this. Yeah, man, nothing will make you uh will show you humility quicker than trying to go share that if you don't quite have the grasp you thought you had on it, yeah, and actually live it out. So I think like that's where awkwardness can come in. So I'm just thinking of that cyclical play out, you know, like it's kind of a you know, you gotta you you you gotta sit in both, I think. Yeah. Um, so what what is your hope here for groups at Wellspring? I I mean in general, just across the board. Like what would you say? Like, what are what are we trying to build and what would you hope to see?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Let me say this before I go into other ones is is our our goal is to have a hundred percent of people in groups. That's how much we are bought into this whole idea of getting people in groups. And that could be a men's group, that could be a uh a woman's group or an off-campus group is is kind of what I would look after. Um, but a hundred percent of our people in a group, because that's discipleship best happens within community um and not and maybe not a crowd, or it it deepens within community. Um, and so what we're trying to see is is every single person that calls Wellspring home into a certain community where they can be known and and know and be known to other people. Um and then just in in that, um having having people just pour into each other's lives. Um life is not a solo sport. Yeah. So for us to we want to build a culture where it's not, hey, I'm going through the Christian life all by myself. And so we're we're pouring in a lot of time and effort and resources into creating an environment where small groups is like a heartbeat of wellspring. So in a sense, even like a slogan or a statement going, uh, we are a church of small groups or not a church of small groups, and that's not my own slogan. I've stole that from someone else, but but it is true. Like we don't want to be a church with small groups, we want to be a church of small groups, yeah. Um, and because we see it as a biblical model for us, um, all through out scripture, we see house churches scattered all over this, all over a city, right? And they're and they're pouring into one another, but they don't neglect acts as don't neglect meeting together as the church. Yeah, right. And so we see a big gathering of collection of house churches gathering together to worship God. And so we want to take at Wellspring, we want to take that biblical model of hey, they're still gathering in the temple, yeah, but they're gathering house by house uh throughout the city. Yeah, and so our our vision in this too would be to have and I again I look after off campus small groups, so I have um house churches or small groups scattered all over the valley. And so, and it's cool. We just had a a leaders' meeting on Sunday, and I asked, like, where's everyone meeting? And do we have a small group? in Palm Springs and someone's hand went up. And do we have a a small group meeting in Cat City and the hand goes up? And so we have small groups happening all over the valley. And that would be our our dream come true is that um we we spread out all over the valley in different, you know,